Romans 7 Saved or unsaved person

[Piper]

Doug Moo says it is an unsaved person.

I think it is the experience of all believers.

What say ye?

 

[DaveXR650]

I think it's the experience of believers too. But the chapter covers a lot, including the role of the law in showing sin, the way a saved person looks at the law versus an unsaved person. There is especially an emphasis I think towards Jewish believers who already had an understanding of the law. But it focuses on the battle a true believer faces with sin.

You don't want to take Romans 7 as giving permission to live a sinful life and serve God with your mind but tolerate sin in your life. And, you don't want to think there is a way to "move on to chapter 8 and get complete victory by the Spirit" or in some other way find a short cut around the battle a Christian will face with himself.

 

[Van]

Doug Moo says it is an unsaved person.
I think it is the experience of all believers.
What say ye?

Romans 7:14 (Interpretive translation)
For we perceive that the Law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, predisposed to sin.

This thread, and many commentaries seek to determine if this condition refers to Paul as an unsaved person or a saved person.

However, all such efforts turn on a false dichotomy. Both saved and unsaved human spirits reside within our body of flesh and both conditions, can set their minds on some spiritual things or on fleshly desires.

Note that in 1 Corinthians 3:1 Paul speaks to new, immature Christians, and non-Christians in the same manner, using spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the Gospel.

 

[KenH]

It is absolutely the apostle Paul speaking after the Holy Spirit had sovereignly regenerated him. Paul, speaking as an unsaved man, would not have concluded it with Romans 7:24-25: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul did not say "O wretched man that I was!", he says "O wretched man that I am!"

 

[kyredneck]

I think it is the experience of all believers.

Yes. Definitely.

23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. Ro 7

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. Gal 5

It's the conflict that lies within us all, something we all need to realize. What an utter shame that a supposed 'teacher of Israel' would say otherwise.

 

[canadyjd]

Doug Moo says it is an unsaved person.

I think it is the experience of all believers.

What say ye?

If you study it closely, from about chapter 5 forward, you will see a couple of things….

1. Paul personifies both “sin” and “death” as rulers in the world. The “sin master” controls the person, forcing them to do things against their “will” and not do the things of righteousness.

2. Paul compared those who are enslaved to sin with those who have freedom from sin through faith in Christ.

When Paul exclaims “oh wretched man that I am” (this was a phrase used by slaves) “who can deliver me from this body of death!”

The phrase “body of death” shows possession. So understood as saying this body that belongs to the death master.

He then gives praise to Christ Jesus.

If you read further into chapter 8 (unfortunate chapter break), you see Paul praising them for being slaves of righteousness.

So, my opinion favors Moo, that Paul’s intention was to describe his life prior to salvation, Therefore unsaved.

peace to you

 

[tyndale1946]

Yes. Definitely.

23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. Ro 7

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. Gal 5

It's the conflict that lies within us all, something we all need to realize. What an utter shame that a supposed 'teacher of Israel' would say otherwise.

Look in the mirror!... Brother Glen

 

[Dave G]

I think it is the experience of all believers.

I agree, and I've experienced it myself for many years.


" For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." ( Romans 7:22-25 ).

To me, " in my members" describes a believer's eyes, ears, etc... the "inward man" describes someone with a new "heart", and new spirit towards God; Someone who is born again and experiences what it is to love God in the Spirit and in their spirit. The "outer man" ( 2 Corinthians 4:16, body of this death from the passage above and "in my flesh dwells no good thing", Romans 7:18 ) is the body of flesh that traps the believer into doing that which they don't want to do...

But which the Spirit of God has the power to "mortify", or put to death ( Romans 8:1-17 ).

Also, see Galatians 5 where Paul describes the same thing to the Galatians, and encourages them to walk in the Spirit so they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.