Romans 8:28-30

The title of this thread was supposed to be Romans 8:28-30, can a mod correct this for me??

Disclaimer for my DoG Brethern; I am directing this question towards my FW Brethern, but feel free to join in. The reason why I am directing it this way is because I know y'all will disagree with this analysis, but I don't know if my FW Brethern will agree or disagree with this. I am not 100% dogmatic about this, but the more I study this out, the more I "lean" this way!!


Rom. 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now, here's where it gets "sticky". The more I read this in light of other scriptures, this is what I am coming up with. Notice that in all this, Paul states that whom He forknew, He conformed to the image of His Son. Nowhere does Paul write He "was not going to confrom some to the image of His Son"; meaning that God didn't "unelect" certain individuals. What I am trying to get at is this: I can not find anywhere where "predestination" was directed to "doomed" individuals that would HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE HE DID NOT CHOOSE THEM FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Now, lets take a look at this text in John Chapter 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, Jesus was talking to unbelieving Jew here. If you take a very close look at the text of this passage, I truly believe that Jesus is talking about those who "come unto me", while He was here on earth. Meaning that the Jews had their eyes blinded and their hearing dulled by God, so that Jesus would be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!" So, in essence(sp?), Jesus was talking of those who would come to Him, as those who were there at the same time Jesus was, and not something that would be carried over in the same way as He did here on earth.

Here is a passage to back this up:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now here in John 12, Jesus states that "if I be lifted up", He will draw all men. He is talking about after He is to be slain, that this will take place. In John 4, He states that all the Father gives Him, will come unto Him. So, I can see a contrast in the way He is talking. Only certain ones could come to Him at that time, because if all the Jews would have believed He was the Messiah, they would not have crucified Him. After His death, burial, and resurrection, He is now drawing all men unto Him, but not all will come.

The "marrow" of the point I am trying to make is this; I truly believe that when God predestinated someone/anyone, it was for good, and not predestination for something bad. I believe the Disciples, Paul, Moses and Aaron, all the major and minor prophets, etc, were predestinated to accomplish His will.

In Romans 8:28-30, it does not state that He predestinated the "others" to be conformed to the image of Satan. To make that "bible jump", is unbiblical. God chose us IN CHRIST and not apart from Christ. I know this may come off confusing to some, so if y'all need any clarification, let me know, I will try to make it clearer. Please accept my apology for the way this is worded. What I type, and what I actually want to type, are all too often different. It's hard to put things in word correctly through a keyboard.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Boy, I may need to go into the "witness protection program" now!! GULP!! LOL

 

Reply to Van

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Brother Van, I think that when Jesus is talking here at this moment, He was talking of those that were there at that point in time, and not including us after He arose that third and appointed morning. Look at the woman with the issue of blood, blind Bartimaeus, the man with the withered hand, the man they dropped down through the ceiling, etc. I believe it was those individuals that Jesus was talking about "shall come unto Me". They knew who He was because their eyes hadn't been blinded by God.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Contrast this statement I bolded with verse 44.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. I think right here proves my case. Jesus was talking of those who "come unto me", as those who were on earth at the same time He was, and was not talking about us who were to come later. And FTR, we have not seen Jesus, the Son of God, so those that "seeth the Son" had to be those with Him at the same time here on earth.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Same statement that was made in verse 39. My DoG Brethern hold this passage as proof that God only elected some, and those who are elected will come. You can not take this as Jesus talking about the future, but He was talking in the "now" sense. I do believe that we are drawn to God first, but I also believe you can chose to reject the calling. They hold this as "proof" that the elect will come, and this will not support their case concerning the matter, IMHO.


Now the reasons why Caiaphas(sp?) and Annas, and the other unbelieving Jews couldn't believe was because they had their eyes blinded and their ears dulled of hearing by God. After Jesus died, their eyes were opened, and they could hear with their ears. The centurion stated, "Truly, this was the Son of God". So I believe his eyes were opened thisquick AFTER Jesus died. Why? If they would have known that Jesus was/is the Messiah, they would not have crucified Him, and therefore, the scriptures would not have been fulfilled.

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Brother Van, the point I am trying to make is that in all of this predestination, I can not find where anyone was "doomed for hell", from the foundation of the world. I believe that people such as Moses and Aaron, Joshua, Jeremiah, the twelve Disciples, Paul, etc, were predestined by God, but in this, it was a "good thing", and not a "bad thing"....meaning I don't think anyone is created by God, and presdestined for hell. Sure, God knew where I was headed when He made me, but He knew that by "foreknowledge", and not by "making me for hell". Does this clear things up any??

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

P.S. I can't believe I went to John 6 and Romans 8 to refute "predestination"!! I may need to go into the "witness protection program after this"!! GULP!!! LOL :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:??????

 

Brother, what I meant by the "unelect", is those that in the Calvinist model of salvation, its those who God chose not to choose. I guess that was a rather poor choice of words on my part.

I agree with this statement. However, in the Calvinist model, they were never afforded the opportunity to come to Christ, and that is not so. Jesus stated, "If I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." So I'll take His word on it!! :thumbs:

Here is something that I think can not be proven with scripture. In the Calvinist model, it takes the assumption that if God conforms some to the image of the Son, then some must not be. Again, prove to me, with scripture that God, in essence, makes some conformed to the image of satan. That is the only other alternative; it's either Jesus or satan.

Let's take a closer look at Romans 8:29. Now mind you, I am no Greek scholar, and all I have to use for this is Thayer's, so please be patient with me.

Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now, here is the Greek word for "foreknow": proginōskō G4267

Thayer's:

1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow

a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate

Now, I know that predestinate is one possible application of this word, but Paul uses a different word for predestinate in this same sentence, so I think that "foreknow" is the correct word used here.

Greek word used for "predestinate": proorizō G4309

Thayer's:

1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

This word used for predestinate is the only possible application for this word, so it is correct.

In essence, whom God foreknew, He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now, here is a question. Who has God not "foreknown" at anytime(please don't take this statement in the "universalist" sense). He has known all of us. Nowhere does this state that some were condemned from eternity past. I can not find any scripture to support this assumption. I don't even think it can be found where God passed over some and left them in their sinful state, without first coming to them and showing them the lost condition.

Here is a passage I was reading from yesterday evening:

Jer. 42: 7 And it came to pass after ten days, that the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah.

8 Then called he Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces which were with him, and all the people from the least even to the greatest,

9 And said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, unto whom ye sent me to present your supplication before him;

10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

11 Be not afraid of the king of Babylon, of whom ye are afraid; be not afraid of him, saith the LORD: for I am with you to save you, and to deliver you from his hand.

12 And I will shew mercies unto you, that he may have mercy upon you, and cause you to return to your own land.

13 But if ye say, We will not dwell in this land, neither obey the voice of the LORD your God,

14 Saying, No; but we will go into the land of Egypt, where we shall see no war, nor hear the sound of the trumpet, nor have hunger of bread; and there will we dwell:

15 And now therefore hear the word of the LORD, ye remnant of Judah; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; If ye wholly set your faces to enter into Egypt, and go to sojourn there;

16 Then it shall come to pass, that the sword, which ye feared, shall overtake you there in the land of Egypt, and the famine, whereof ye were afraid, shall follow close after you there in Egypt; and there ye shall die.

17 So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there; they shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: and none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them.

18 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As mine anger and my fury hath been poured forth upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem; so shall my fury be poured forth upon you, when ye shall enter into Egypt: and ye shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach; and ye shall see this place no more.

19 The LORD hath said concerning you, O ye remnant of Judah; Go ye not into Egypt: know certainly that I have admonished you this day.

20 For ye dissembled in your hearts, when ye sent me unto the LORD your God, saying, Pray for us unto the LORD our God; and according unto all that the LORD our God shall say, so declare unto us, and we will do it.

21 And now I have this day declared it to you; but ye have not obeyed the voice of the LORD your God, nor any thing for the which he hath sent me unto you.

22 Now therefore know certainly that ye shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence, in the place whither ye desire to go and to sojourn.


Look at this!! God spoke to the remnant of Judah, and told them, through Jeremiah, what He would do if they obeyed His voice, and what He would do if they didn't. They chose not to obey Him, and look at what happened to them. They had a choice to make, and they made the wrong choice!! That's just like us today. When God calls us and tells us what we need to do(live for Him), we have that same decision to make. Choose to serve or disobey Him. But, in all of this, we were never "passed over"(none of us will be), and left to die in our sins and go to the lake of fire without ever being truly offered salvation.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

This is the point I am failing to get across, Bro. Tom, and for that, I am sorry. The gospel is more than just the "gospel message", but is God's power unto salvation, per Romans 1:16. When God comes to someone through the Holy Spirit, that is THE Gospel being presented to them. The "gospel message" also comes from God through a preacher, and to hear that message, we have to hear with our "natural ears". When God speaks to us, we hear with the "spiritual ears" that are in the inner man, our soul/spirit. It communes with God, or rather, God communes with it(the soul/spirit) because it came directly from Him. Our natural man came from the ground that God cursed, and will never be able to commune with God, until He changes it into the most glorious body likened unto Jesus' most glorious body. So I do think that God will come to all that have born and came to "know to do good and doeth not, and to him is sin". Here are some scriptures to support my belief:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rom. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.+

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 12: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Tit. 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

I hope this helps. No, I am not a "universalist, but I do think that those who die and go to hell, did have a chance for heaven before dying. They just refused Him, when He called.

i am I AM's!!

Willis