Romans 8 exegesis

Romans 8:13 only presents a problem for those who believe in eternal security (OSAS). If you do, you have to regard "death" in this verse as physical death, not eternal death. However, if you believe in conditional security (Galations 5:4), this verse needs no interpretation. This is only one of many passages that demonstrate the error of belief in OSAS.

 

This is a question I have always wondered about, and commentaries seem to differ. Does the "walking in the flesh" in verse 4 mean a Christian walking in the flesh and verse 8 "in the flesh" mean an unsaved person, or do both mean an unsaved person? James 1 13-15 seems to say it is possible for a Christian to sin, and Romans 7 describes the struggle. Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

I heard somebody say once that "walking in the flesh" means to be following the law and relying on the law instead of the finished work of Christ.
Seemed to make sense, though.

 

Saved individuals have a choice to make every moment and that is do we die to self or do we let self rule the moment. We can walk in the flesh or we can walk in the Spirit. There are consequences for both.

There are really two major groups of thought on this subject and both are Scripturally incorrect. One group realizes that in order to have OSAS walking in the flesh as a lifestyle has to be an inpossibility, and so they would say that a saved individual will not walk in the flesh.

Group 2 has been demonstrated by Zenas in that there are those that see this is a warning to saved individuals, but they errantly tie the consequences with eternal salvation and come up with conditional security, which is equally as incorrect as group one.

The only harmonious way to view the warnings in Scripture is to understand they are indeed dealing with saved individuals and that it's not dealing with eternal salvation.

It is dealing with salvation, but it's not eterna salvation, because Scripture clearly teaches that eternal savlation is not a life-long process, but a one-time event. And it is an event that never has to be repeated. It's one and done.

When we compare Scripture with Scripture we see that the salvation of the soul is in fact a life-long process and this process can be thwarted by the individual. So the death that is being speaking of is explained in other areas of Scripture as the loss of the soul.

Mr. Jim if you would like to study this matter out in more detail just send me a PM and I'll send you some resources to help.

 

MrJim,

I'm sorta "on board" with JJump. As the earlier verses say, our soul and spirit are saved eternally. What this verse is speaking of is our "temporal" salvation -- the part where we can either have an "abundant life" as Christ promised (John 10:10) or we can (other extreme) "sin unto [physical] death" which the Bible says don't even pray for -- they're gonna die anyway.

There are a least 2 other places where I know this is referred to: 1) Rom 5:10 where is says we are saved eternally by His death and saved much more (temporally) by living His life. 2) Also, Heb 10:26-27 where it talks about "sinning willfully." The "fear of judgment and fiery indignation" is not of eternal judgment but of chastisement and death here on earth because we sin willfully. Give these "a read" and let me know if I can help.

skypair

 

I want you to explain to me, please, why I am in full agreement with you on this point.

It has always been my position that eternal salvation is not timely (temporal) salvation. The former is a one-time event with no input at all from man, the latter is a process, and is mostly the salvation Paul and others so often speak of, and so often misunderstood.

 

Concerning Romans 8, ask yourself these questions:

"Walking after the Spirit", who does that describe? 1) Saved people 2) Lost people

"Walking after the flesh", who does that describe? 1) Saved people 2) Lost people

"Walking after the Spirit and not after the Flesh" is both a legal status and a descriptive of Christians.

This does not mean that Christians do not sin. But they "can not do the things that they would" (Gal 5). It means that Christians can not be in a legal state of sin, nor in a state of continuous love for sin, nor in a state of continual practice of sin.

To "mortify", that is, "render dead", the deeds of the flesh, you must have the Spirit, i.e., be born again. Those that are Christ's have mortified (crucified) the flesh with the affections and lusts (Gal 5).

Romans 8 is mainly a display of the difference between the saved and the lost. The lost are condemned, and characteristically walk after the flesh. The saved are not condemned, and characteristically walk after the Spirit.

 

This makes perfect sense, as walking in the flesh entails works...the things done in the flesh. These things never lead to salvation, but death. Even "good" works, as they are filthy rags to God. I'm with Scarlett, I'll have to join her for dinner (with my wife, of course ) to chew on this more. I'm also going to go back through to see how this phrase fits in context in where it is used elsewhere throughout the Bible.

 

Is there anything to the concept that v4 walking in the flesh is a Christian sinning and in v8 "in the flesh" is a lost person?

 

This is our nexis (sp?) --- we both see saved by His death and saved by His life, Rom 5:10. Regardless of how we come to Christ (you say no input by man; I say he MUST believe), we agree that JUSTIFICATION comes before SANCTIFICATION -- saved by His death before saved by His life.

Another way to say it is BELIEF before REGENERATION. The OT saints, like us, were saved by belief BUT they could not be regenerated --- Christ had not yet lived so how could they be saved by His life??? How could the Spirit come and indwell and give believers the LIFE of Christ???? Jesus said, "Impossible! Unless I go, He cannot come!"

You and I both believe, no doubt, that we are "Christ" living today before our generation. But that couldn't be were it not for the power of the indwelling Spirit. And this is what the OT saints will receive in "the regeneration" after the "resurrection of the just" post-trib into Messiah's MK.

Another way to think of it is this ---- we are being sanctified right now as we live. Sanctification is preparation for glorification. You can't be glorified until God dwells in you. Through justification and sanctification, our souls and spirits are readied for our bodies to be glorified in the rapture. We have the righteousness of God in our soul -- the "mind of Christ" in our spirit. The only thing left is for God to change this mortal body to immortal/glory, 1Cor 15:50-51!!

Salvation is a "process." Spiritual justification -- temporal sanctification -- heavenly glorification, preparation of the soul -- spirit -- body for eternity with God. This is the significance of the delineation of the soul, spirit, and body that PL and Calvinism denies.

skypair

 

That's good, MrJim! :thumbs:

Because many believers do not know that they can "sin unto death" temporally. My favorite/worst example is smoking -- destroying the "temple" of God. My mom died of emphysema but there are SO many bad outcomes of smoking!! This is a "sin unto death" when one is in the final throes of destruction! Please, if you smoke --- QUIT!! Your Christian friends, though they pray with all their might, have no power over your situation! And that is God's word, not ours!

I have no doubt of my mother's salvation. I believe that we often come to Christ in situations that we may never have enough faith to overcome. I, fortunately, overcame the same habit, perhaps on account of my youth, my maleness + God, for sure! But "willful" sin -- be sure you will be expecting "judgment and fiery indignation" in this life!

And that is the point of "saved by the life of Christ," Jim. God can only sanctify you IAW your obedience. God gives us a really good pattern for repentance/quitting the flesh in 2Cor 7:9-11. He gives the power of the Spirit (and, in my mom's case, of "chemicals" -- I paid for her to get injections to try to disable her addiction BEFORE it was too late). I am very emotional about this but also "wise" in the ways of God and Satan, too. You need to be committed to this concept of "saved by His life" if you are to understand the "abundant life!"

skypair