Romans Chapter 7

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
SMM, your point is granted re Galatians, but does that mean you espouse a form of antinomianism?

Matt,

From the American Heritage Dictionay:
an·ti·no·mi·an·ism n. 1. Theology. The doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law, whether scriptural, civil, or moral, and that salvation is attained solely through faith and the gift of divine grace. 2. The belief that moral laws are relative in meaning and application as opposed to fixed or universal.

Yes and No.

My stance is that you are either under Law or Grace...

I have steadfastly stated that Grace has far higher requirements than any written code...

And, Grace fully contains a superset of The true Law (that which is untouched by human tinkering.

)

To amplify...

Paul says that all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient...

So, technically speaking, I can drive 100 down the interstate...

That is surely not going to be expedient if there is a sharp curve in the road, other traffic or a radar cop...

And, besides that it's just plain dumb...

And, Paul makes a point in another place that the Civil Authorities do not bear the sword in vain...

Try telling that radar cop (or EMS as they scrape you off the road) that it was perfectly legal under God to do such a thing...

This also applies in the case where the Civil Authorities tell you not to evangelize in Jesus Name or conduct a non-violent protest at an abortion clinic...

It may be permissible under God... It may even be directed under God... But, if you do it the Civil Authorities will prosecute you...

In Paul's day they beat the Disciples Unmercifully for speaking in Jesus Name...

They did God's Will, but they violated Pauls (later) 'law' about obeying authority...

They suffered the consequence of Civil Law for doing God's Will...

But, they captured God's Smile for doing so...

Hope I haven't totally confused you?

I guess the point I keep trying to make is that you have to Start in the Spirit; Walk in The Spirit and Finish in The Spirit...

Adding any other requirement negates Grace...

I don't do things contained in the Law to be Saved, Justified or made Righteous...

I do lawful things because I *have* been Saved; made Righteous, and been Justified...

It's who I am...

Get the order right... You Live

Get the order wrong... You Perish

SMM

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
SMM

I don't think scripture is ambiguous at all...

Though I have found SMM to be doctrinally incorrect on a number of Bible issues when his traditions are evaluated "Sola scriptura" I have to agree with him on this point.

And here is proof of just "how clear" the Bible is on the subject of the saints under obligation to "keep the commandments of God".

The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.

John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”

These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.

But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?

Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.

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Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.

Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --

Romans 3:31 “Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God”

So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same

John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)

Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.

Is it any wonder that Paul writes

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31

And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".

God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".

Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)

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But some have argued that these saints under persecution keeping God’s commandments are a select few – and not really the larger group – of all Christians – in God’s planning. Is that true?

Isaiah 66 makes it clear regarding the “New Heavens and New Earth” also identified in Rev 20 -- “From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to Worship”

How can Christ the Creator call for ALL mankind to honor Sabbath as a day of Worship like that in the New Earth? Surely the Sabbath will NOT be for all mankind since in fact it WAS only for the Jews – correct?

Christ the Creator addresses the point head-on

“The Sabbath WAS MADE for Mankind” Mark 2:27

From the very “making” of Christ the Creator’s Holy Day – it was “made for Mankind”

Ok – so “when did Christ the Creator MAKE it?”

Notice - Christ the Creator gave mankind the 7-day week in Gen 2:3. For it was ” Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made”. A 7-day week - not a 6-day week for mankind. Christ the Creator makes his holy 7th day memorial of His creative action in making mankind – “for mankind” when he MAKES it “holy” – sanctified in Gen 2:3 before the fall of mankind.

When God speaks directly to His people in Exodus 20 and summarizes that same Gen 1-2:3 event notice what Christ the Creator says of His own Holy day – Made Holy at HIS making of this planet and life on this planet – and mankind.

Exodus 20:8-11 summary of the Creation week "event" shows it to have been made holy, sanctified and blessed by virtue of God’s own act of resting – that “alone” is given as the basis for the command. The commandment is in the format “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy…For in Six days God…. Therefore He Blessed, sanctified and made holy the Seventh day”.

Here it is in full as – God framed it at Sinai speaking directly to the People of God, He said

Exodus 20:
8 ""Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed The Sabbath day and made it holy.

</font>[/QUOTE]To those who enjoy glossing over the details in these texts of scripture I would just say "enjoy!"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[gekko]

ok.

lets look at it this way.

we have been freed from the law of sin and death - we can all agree on this. no? (romans 7)

now Christ has come and has died for our sins and that of the world and rose from the dead DEFEATING DEATH. (i dont know why i capitalized that - maybe it has some significance?)

now we take part in the "perfect law of liberty." i dont fully understand what that means yet... paul says the law is spiritual. it has been written on our hearts - which is part of the new covenant (jeremiah 31:31)

now that we are not under the law of sin and death - Christ demolished death - and now we have the perfect law of liberty - that which is written on our hearts - our conscience testifies.

that's how i see it a little bit...

SMM you said "This also applies in the case where the Civil Authorities tell you not to evangelize in Jesus Name or conduct a non-violent protest at an abortion clinic...

It may be permissible under God... It may even be directed under God... But, if you do it the Civil Authorities will prosecute you..."

nope - their not allowed to prosecute you - isn't it against the first ammendment? (that's what i've heard)

although i know you were probably just making a point with that...

God bless

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Gekko, yep, making apoint using the Apostles experieces in Acts... SMM

 

[BobRyan]

we have been freed from the law of sin and death - we can all agree on this. no? (romans 7)

now Christ has come and has died for our sins and that of the world and rose from the dead DEFEATING DEATH. (i dont know why i capitalized that - maybe it has some significance?)

now we take part in the "perfect law of liberty." i dont fully understand what that means yet... paul says the law is spiritual. it has been written on our hearts - which is part of the new covenant (jeremiah 31:31)

Exactly!

Both the New "Covenant" and the Old "Covenant" have the TEN COMMANDMENT law of God.

2Cor 3 makes this clear. In the Old Covenant (NOT to be confused with the Old Testament) it is EXTERNAL and merely on stone tablets. Under that Covenant the rule is "OBEY and LIVE". Adam was the first to LIVE under that covenant and the first to fail it.

All fallen humanity are merely "condemned" to this very day by that covenant.

---

The NEW Covenant as you point out in the OLD Testament has the Ten Commadments - written "ON TABLETS of the Human HEART" (2Cor 3) as opposed to merely being EXTERNAL.

So as James 2 says we are to live and act as those who ARE to be judged BY that "Law of Liberty" that says "Do not steal" etc.

The New Covenant promise in Jeremiah shows how it works - it writes God's LAW in the heart - the NEW creation desires harmony with the perfect sinless Character of Christ! So when we do sin - we come to Him in repentance.

In Christ,

Bob