Rome's Challenge

[Claudia_T]

Is God....
more concerned about which day you or I worship Him, or simply that we worship Him?

In light of your belief, please explain Romans 14:1-23 and Col. 2:16-23.

Mt:15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Col. 2:16-23
It refers only to the sabbaths which were "a shadow of things to come" and not to the seventh-day Sabbath. There were seven yearly holy days, or holidays, in ancient Israel which were also called sabbaths. These were in addition to, or "beside the sabbaths of the Lord" (Leviticus 23:38), or seventh-day Sabbath. These all foreshadowed, or pointed to, the cross and ended at the cross. God's seventh-day Sabbath was made before sin entered, and therefore could foreshadow nothing about deliverance from sin. That's why Colossians chapter 2 differentiates and specifically mentions the sabbaths that were "a shadow." These seven yearly sabbaths which were abolished are listed in Leviticus chapter 23.


According to Romans 14:5, the day we keep is a matter of personal opinion, isn't it?

Notice that the whole chapter is on judging one another (Verses 4, 10, 13). The issue here is not over the seventh-day Sabbath, which was a part of the great moral law, but over the yearly feast days of the ceremonial law. Jewish Christians were judging Gentile Christians for not observing them. Paul is simply saying, "Don't judge each other. That ceremonial law is no longer binding."

 

[Shiloh]

More confused babbling from the Bobsi Twins. I think I am catching on.....one of you make some ridiculous statement or scan something from Mrs. White's stack of worthless writings and the other puts your seal of approval on it as if that makes it right.

Corrections

1. This is, and I will say it real slow, a B-a-p-t-i-s-t message board. A Baptist is a Baptist NOT a protestant.

2. The Sabbath was a Ceremonial Law between God and Israel.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. Exo 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:

2. The Catholic church did not "start" Sunday worship or The Lord's Day.

I will repeat what someone has already said. Claudia, if you would study the Bible as much as you study "Adventist literature" you would not be as confused as you are.

 

[redwards]

Mt:15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye......

So...
is the context of these scriptures about the 'correct' day to worship our Lord and Savior?

 

[D28guy]

A poster posted...

"More confused babbling from the Bobsi Twins."

What a sad thing this is. Goodness gracious cant we, brothers and sisters, disagree and yet still post respectfully?

Sadly,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

So...
is the context of these scriptures about the 'correct' day to worship our Lord and Savior?

Originally Posted by redwards
Is God....
more concerned about which day you or I worship Him, or simply that we worship Him?




that was your question... my answer to that part of your question was. YES God cares if you just make up your own commandments

Exodus 20:
11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.



Mt:15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye......

 

[Claudia_T]

A poster posted...



What a sad thing this is. Goodness gracious cant we, brothers and sisters, disagree and yet still post respectfully?

Sadly,

Mike

oh, that's just Shiloh, he does that with just about each of his posts.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Claudia: I do not mean this in a mean spirit and I hope you do not perceive it that way. However, if you would stop taking verses out of context and read the ones before and after, you would understand that you are not correct in your interpretations.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Here, Jesus is talking about the people who worship him with their lips, but not their heart. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

This is also not talking about the Sabbath. Jesus is still talking about people worshipping Him in vain because their lips speak what they do not believe in their hearts.

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Do you see any similarity in these verses? He is talking about honoring our parents - not keeping the Sabbath.

You can pluck any one verse out of the Bible and make it to mean what you want, but if you read the surrounding verses, you will see that you were wrong.

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand:

Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

The operative phrase is in Mark 7:15.

Do you see how differently the verses are construed when you read several surrounding verses instead of just plucking one out and interpreting it in your own way?

You are twisting the Words of Jesus Christ. IMHO, not a very healthy thing to do since He told us not to add anything to the Bible, nor to take anything away from it.

Blessings,
§ue

 

[BobRyan]

Claudia: I do not mean this in a mean spirit and I hope you do not perceive it that way. However, if you would stop taking verses out of context and read the ones before and after, you would understand that you are not correct in your interpretations.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Here, Jesus is talking about the people who worship him with their lips, but not their heart. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

The reason Matt 15 and Mark 7 are raised on this kind of thread is not because we think they are talking about the Sabbath Commandment -- it is because we see clearly that Christ is addressing the HUGE problem of man-made tradition brought against the Word of God, in this case the TEN Commandment portion - and specifically the 5th Commandment about honoring Parents.

Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

This is also not talking about the Sabbath. Jesus is still talking about people worshipping Him in vain because their lips speak what they do not believe in their hearts.

Actually Jesus is pointing out that man-made tradition has no moral-value at all. And when the religious leaders complain that their own made-up traditions are not being carefully followed by the Disciples -- Christ counters with the fact that God's REAL commands are being set aside by the FAKE commands and "pretend-scripture" of man-made tradition.

Christ is contrasting the REAL wrong - vs the fake-imagined wrong.

In this case the man-made-tradition is about "baptizing fingers" before eating food.

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Do you see any similarity in these verses? He is talking about honoring our parents - not keeping the Sabbath.

He is talking about one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS and arguing that the man-made traditions of religious leaders - no matter how popular DO NOT suffice against the Commandments of God.

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

The sad truth is -- religious leaders are still today inserting man-made tradition in place of the COMMANDMENTS of God - the TEN COMMANDMENTS even as they did in the days of Christ, in the Dark Ages via the made-up traditions of the RCC -- and even some do it still today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have so far only read the first post of this thread, so may here introduce myself while not relevantly,
Claudia T:
"The Adventists, therefore, in common with the Israelites, derive their belief from the Old Testament, which position is confirmed by the New Testament, endorsing fully by the life and practice of the Redeemer and His apostles the teaching of the Sacred Word for nearly a century of the Christian era."

GE:

As for myself and some Calvinist Reformed Brethren (world-wide by now I pray and believe) (AGAINST the Adventists and the Israelites):
We derive our belief of the Seventh Day Sabbath Christian, from the NEW Testament first -- which position is founded upon and endorsed fully by the life and practice of the Redeemer and His apostles, for having been the teaching of the Sacred Word for nearly a century of the Christian era, and is further enhanced and confirmed by the Old Testament. The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead detremines the very basis, content and form, of our position as regards the Day of Worship Rest of the People of God of all times.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by I Am Blessed 16

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Here, Jesus is talking about the people who worship him with their lips, but not their heart. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath.


Then commented upon by BobRyan:

"The reason Matt 15 and Mark 7 are raised on this kind of thread is not because we think they are talking about the Sabbath Commandment -- it is because we see clearly that Christ is addressing the HUGE problem of man-made tradition brought against the Word of God, in this case the TEN Commandment portion - and specifically the 5th Commandment about honoring Parents."

Objectors to the Sabbath Day usually - no, invariably - forget Jesus' premise for taking the offenders to task, namely, the PROPER, valid, and existing, TRUE Sabbath of the LORD your God. It would have been pointless and in vain for Christ to have reprimanded the transgressors, if not the real and acceptable Sabbath rest was supposed TO BE! In other words, all these 'arguments' (for it can scarcely be seen for 'argument') about Jesus' abrogation of the Sabbath (in whatever manner) makes nonsense if the Sabbath no longer were a requirement of God's own.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by redwards
So... is the context of these scriptures about the 'correct' day to worship our Lord and Savior? ....

Is God....
more concerned about which day you or I worship Him, or simply that we worship Him?

GE:

It is so that God got very particular about 'the day upon which'. It was because since the beginning He was so 'eschatological' about it! "The Seventh Day ..." immer! At last Hebrews came along with this summary: "God thus concerning the Seventh Day spake." Is God going to be proved true to His Word to the very letter in the end?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Then 'God is concerned about which day we worship Him ....', because it is a matter of the CHURCH, which cannot worship as the CHURCH, if not AS, the Church, i.e., as CONGREGATION -- 'Believers-Come-Together'. It happens within time - in God's determined-for-the-purpose-, 'eschatological', TIME. The Church cannot and may not, come together for worship, all the time, 'every day as a sabbath' - that's taking the law into our own hands, us, manhandling it, deforming and caricaturing what to God is holy. That is legalism of the worst kind.
It's nothing of our likes or dislikes or comfort -- it is God's Day, and He has ever been clear upon which day it is: "The Seventh".
God so much cares it is the Seventh Day that is His Sabbath Day, He 'predicted', yea, promised and prophesied, it would be "on the Seventh Day", He actually rsiased Christ from the dead "In Sabbath's fulness of daylight".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Claudia posted this:
"Mt:15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

GE:
Here's a difficult one for you too, Claudia: Think these accusations could apply to the SDAs as well? Never gave it a thought? Well, why stick with your 'enemies' in their gross, self-righteous, insistence on Sunday for being the day of God's thus concerning speaking?