Salvation by Faith or Salvation by Absolute Knowledge?

[billwald]

>>BW: Why are we to trust what we don't understand when it comes to religion but this is considered a sign of ignorance and stupidity in other matters?


>HP: Can you give us an example Bill?

Well, if I wrote that I believed in space aliens and time travel but could not give any details of either you would would think me somewhat dense. Yet I am supposed to say that I "believe in" the doctrine of the Trinity but I don't what the doctrine means and neither does anyone else. People smarter than all of us combined have been arguing about it and killing each other over it for 2000 years.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Kathyrn: If we mess up, we repent, confess and keep persevering to the end. It is a journey and a battle. No one is perfect yet. Only those in heaven.

HP: I like your approach in this first sentence. I have to wonder about the second to the last one, and what your definition of the word ‘perfect’ might be. Was Paul delusional when he penned these Scriptures? 2Co 13:11 ¶ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Php 3:15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


I wonder why a man living in the OT could be called 'perfect' by no less than God Himself, yet some would present it as impossible for anyone in our enlightened day and abundance of grace that has been proffered, to say nothing of the indwelling Holy Spirit, to be perfect? Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bill Wald: Well, if I wrote that I believed in space aliens and time travel but could not give any details of either you would would think me somewhat dense. Yet I am supposed to say that I "believe in" the doctrine of the Trinity but I don't what the doctrine means and neither does anyone else. People smarter than all of us combined have been arguing about it and killing each other over it for 2000 years.

HP: Oh, but Bill, those killed were heretics…… or so considered by someone’s standard. May we never forget the fate of Servetus at the hands of Calvin.

Do you not honestly believe there are some today, quick to label another which they happen to disagree with, with the label of heretic, that would not kill again thinking they do God a service? Let’s see. I almost remember a verse concerning that in the last days. Hmmmmmm.

All the more reason such labels should be an automatic expulsion from a forum that invites others in whom they disagree to openly participate in discussion and debate, even if you are a moderator or anyone else.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What about deception? If we can know with absolute knowledge of our salvation, how is deception possible? Why the Scriptural admonishments, one of which is: 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[Kathryn]

HP: I like your approach in this first sentence. I have to wonder about the second to the last one, and what your definition of the word ‘perfect’ might be. Was Paul delusional when he penned these Scriptures? 2Co 13:11 ¶ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Php 3:15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


I wonder why a man living in the OT could be called 'perfect' by no less than God Himself, yet some would present it as impossible for anyone in our enlightened day and abundance of grace that has been proffered, to say nothing of the indwelling Holy Spirit, to be perfect? Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Another translation of the Greek for "perfect" is "complete"; having all that is necesssary for salvation. "Be perfect (complete) as your heavenly Father is perfect." Being complete is having the Life of Christ and living in the Spirit. St. Paul also talks of "it is not I, but Christ who lives in me." This is being "perfect" or "complete". The complete "perfection" or "completeness" is when we see God face to face, for now we see dimly.

 

[Marcia]

Well, if I wrote that I believed in space aliens and time travel but could not give any details of either you would would think me somewhat dense. Yet I am supposed to say that I "believe in" the doctrine of the Trinity but I don't what the doctrine means and neither does anyone else. People smarter than all of us combined have been arguing about it and killing each other over it for 2000 years.

The doctrine of the Trinity is derived from the Scriptures and can be shown by the Scriptures. The analogy with space aliens is not valid.

 

[steaver]

What is the difference, and how do we hold our salvation? By faith or by absolute knowledge?

Niether. Our salvation is held by God in Christ.

One is born again, regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This is God giving us Living Water which never stops.

Absolute knowledge does not hold one's salvation, it is what is given by God via the Holy Spirit at regeneration. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Having been born of God one now exercises faith in that which they know is true (via the Holy Spirit) yet unseen, faith in Jesus Christ to fulfill His promisses. The disciple's actually did SEE Jesus Christ, yet they still exercised faith IN Jesus Christ.

The disciple's did not "hold" their salvation by faith either, salvation is by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit within the person being saved.

HP; What about deception?

Deception is of the devil, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are indeed saved. You either know it or you do not.

Do you know you have Christ in you HP? I believe you do know Christ is at work in you. Thus, you are saved, purchased (Ehp 1:4) and sealed by God forever.

Eph 1:13In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

:thumbsup:

 

[billwald]

>May we never forget the fate of Servetus at the hands of Calvin.

Servetus was warned that he would be killed if he returned to Geneva. He returned and earned the Darwin Award for that year. I have a similar lack of sympathy for missionaries who go into banned areas. Jesus told us to stay out of areas where we were not welcome.


>Do you not honestly believe there are some today, quick to label another which they happen to disagree with, with the label of heretic, that would not kill again thinking they do God a service?

Agree 100%. Some right wing Christians would impose the OT death penalties on those who disagree with their interpretation of the Bible. Google Christian Reconstruction

FOR an interesting history of Christian oppression, see "A.D. 381" by Charles Freeman.

>All the more reason such labels should be an automatic expulsion from a forum that invites others in whom they disagree to openly participate in discussion and debate, even if you are a moderator or anyone else.

For a person who labels another professed Christian a heretic? I agree.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BillWald: For a person who labels another professed Christian a heretic? I agree.

HP: When one denotes the others beliefs as heretical, that is precisely what they have done. There well may be a time and a place for such conduct, but on a discussion board where others of differing denominations are invited to participate, there should simply be a no tolerance policy for such remarks, from you, me or a moderator. It does absolutely nothing to generate a spirit of goodwill in such discussions period. If one cannot generate at least a measure of good will by refraining from such insults. they should seek another format of discussion other than a debate forum for ‘other’ denominational views.

 

[steaver]

Some right wing Christians would impose the OT death penalties on those who disagree with their interpretation of the Bible. Google Christian Reconstruction

Let's understand that "profession" of faith in Jesus Christ or God does not a Christian make (ref James).

You say "some right wing Christians", first you must define what "right wing" means and second you must NOT consider them Christian if they would support OT death penalties for those who disagree with thier interpretation of the Bible.

So there is no such thing as a genuine Christian who imposes OT death penalties for disagreement of views. Those in the past who killed in the name of Christ for the lable of heretic by their very actions proved they did not have eternal life abiding in them (1 John).

The problem we have is that the term Christian is used very loosely, then and now. James made it very clear, saying one has faith does not prove they have been born of God. One having the Spirit of Christ would not have anything to do with murder (1 John). There are hundreds of thousands of people who call themselves Christian, this does not make them one. Jesus said,

Mat 7:14Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

:thumbsup:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Kathryn...

You asked a simple question.
"What is the difference, and how do we hold our salvation? By faith or by absolute knowledge?"

Faith is the substance of what is hoped for and the evidence of what is not seen. Absolute knowledge we can not have.

We can have the free gifts of faith, hope, and charity however. We can have grace. We can trust in the promises of Jesus Christ, believing all that he taught and revealed.

We hold our salvation by holding faith and a good conscience. Certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith (lost it) by discounting a good conscience according to St. Paul to St. Timothy.

For our faith to live, grow, and persevere to the end we must nourish it with the word of God, beg God to increase our faith, and our faith must be "working through love", abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church."

What you are propagating here is justification by works.

You are not saying it "point blank", but when you say...

"For our faith to live, grow, and persevere to the end we must nourish it with the word of God, beg God to increase our faith, and our faith must be "working through love", abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church."

...you are in fact propagating a false gospel. And your terminology is very similar to the way the apostate Catholic Church articulates their false gospel.

The scriptures are abundantly clear that we are justified (saved) through faith alone, and that we are "kept by the power of God unto salvation", NOT kept by our faithfulness.

The scriptures tell us that even if a child of God is "faithless" at some point in time, God remains faithful to keep us.

And regarding your last statement...

"and our faith must be "working through love", abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church"

...anyone whos faith is rooted in the church will not be saved.

Our faith is in Christ, and Christ alone....not "church".

 

[Alive in Christ]

Kathryn...

I mentioned that what you are propagating is similar to the Catholic false gospel.

I checked your profile and see that you ARE a Catholic.

That explains why you are confused regarding salvation.