Salvation by Works.....or Not?

[Rippon]

I have done careful stuies of the soul/spirit issue in the past . I am firmly in the bipartite camp .

Again , what is dead in sin -- the body ? You didn't answer the question .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I did answer the question. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The spirit does not die, the soul does.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: As for John 5:40, when compared to Romans 8:7;

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

explains why man 'will not come to Him'. Because he can not.

HP: How can you jump to such conclusions? Where does the text say ‘he can not?‘ The text does not state or imply a position of impossibility to come to God if in fact one has the opportunity to hear the gospel and will fulfill the conditions of faith and repentance God commands him to fulfill.

If one is subject to the law of God he is in obedience to it. The text just shows that when one is living in disobedience, he is under its curse with no hope in and of himself. He is at enmity with God. There is no amount of good or obedience that the carnal man can do to right one sin of the past. Until he is born again he will never be subject, or in a right relationship to, Gods law. He must have the blood applied to his sins that are past to ever be said to be subject to God’s law. Again, nothing in the text implies any need of some ability to yield himself in repentance ad faith in order to become subject to God’s law. It only states that as a sinner he is not nor can he be in a sinful state.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

HP: This verse by no means teaches that the soul and spirit are separate entities.

It is common knowledge that many heathen did in fact separate the two. The author here is simply stating that he desires that God sanctify every part of their being. It was not intended to show a distinction between the soul and spirit. He could have said, I pray that your whole self, hook line and sinker, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord. The author was clarifying that it matters not how you cut it, God desires to do a work in preserving your whole being, including your flesh, blameless unto the coming of our Lord.

In stating this as he did, the author skillfully set aside any arguments about only this part or that part being preserved blameless. He was again saying whatever you consider as the whole entire man, every vestige of that man he prayed would be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So much for the argument I have heard raised on this list that some of our self is preserved, while other parts remain sinful. Not so according to this text. It shows clearly that indeed our whole selves can and should be preserved blameless.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The soul and spirit are indeed separate entities.

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

The Word of God divides the two.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ezekiel 18 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

This verse is not saying that the spirit that sins shall not die, neither is it trying to separate the soul from the spirit. It is simple stating that the individual that sins shall certainly die. It is not stating that because one sins there is no chance of salvation, but rather stating that sin brings about a certain punishment apart from the grace of god being applied to our life.

When does the soul, or the individual die in the sense of this text? Certainly it starts at the first sin, but again under what we would call normal circumstances, most do not leave this world subsequent to the first sin nor will they immediately stand in judgment upon the first sin. That possibility exists, but it would be questionable if in fact that has ever happened. The far more likely scenario would be that the individual be given many opportunities to repent and forsake his sins. As long as one remains alive, and the Holy Spirit has not for some reason been withdrawn, one has time to thwart the eternal consequences of this verse. In this world they will be separated from God in the sense that they are not in a right relationship with Him and cannot in that state entertain a certain hope of eternal life. Just the same, they have not yet stood before God in judgment and until then there remains hope that they can or will be saved.

I believe it was the intentions of this author to simply set forth the impossibility of one escaping the sure and certain judgment of God apart from salvations hope. I do not believe it was the author’s intention or the translators intention to set forth any distinction between the spirit or soul of man as dying as opposed to the other. I do not believe it was the intention of the author to establish any other idea of the word ‘die’ than to fix our attention upon the fact that sin separates us here and now from God, and will eventually separate one for eternity apart from repentance and faith in Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

HP: Can anyone on the list inform the listener as to what the separation of the soul and spirit is according to this text or any other? If one thinks they can, go for it. I for one am all ears. The fact is that the words soul and spirit can be used interchangeably for all practical purposes.

This verse sets forth the clear notion that that which is impossible for man to do, the Word of God can accomplish. Again, this verse is not designed to set forth any clear separation of the soul from the spirit. It would be less than helpful if indeed there was any clear distinction, for it does not give us a clue as to what the separation could possibly entail.

The only clear distinction we are given any insight into is that we have a physical body, or an outward man, a temporal body, which will decay and be destroyed as we know it, and we have a spiritual body that is eternal in nature. We have an inner person that will last for eternity, and we have an outward physical body that is temporal and decays. That is the only clear distinction Scripture gives us that I have found.

 

[Dan V.]

HP: How can you jump to such conclusions? Where does the text say ‘he can not?‘ The text does not state or imply a position of impossibility to come to God if in fact one has the opportunity to hear the gospel and will fulfill the conditions of faith and repentance God commands him to fulfill.

If one is subject to the law of God he is in obedience to it. The text just shows that when one is living in disobedience, he is under its curse with no hope in and of himself. He is at enmity with God. There is no amount of good or obedience that the carnal man can do to right one sin of the past. Until he is born again he will never be subject, or in a right relationship to, Gods law. He must have the blood applied to his sins that are past to ever be said to be subject to God’s law. Again, nothing in the text implies any need of some ability to yield himself in repentance ad faith in order to become subject to God’s law. It only states that as a sinner he is not nor can he be in a sinful state.

The text in verse 7 explicitly says he can not:

...Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In the context of the chapter, verse 5 describes the unbeliever. Paul is reminding believers to not slip into their old ways.

Dan V.

 

[Dan V.]

Here's the reason, in Romans 1:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (Romans 1:18-22)

The Egyptians saw the power of God in the plagues and they would not let the children of Israel go. "Their foolish heart was darkened"--it's not that they were "unable" to let the children of Israel go, they CHOSE not to let them go--therefore God sent the final plague "the slaying of the first born son" to Egypt. Pharaoh had already hardened his heart--he had witnessed the power of God. The application of the blood to the lintels and doorposts of the homes of the children of Israel was in the form of a "cross"--which was a foreshadow of the cross of Christ, our Passover.

For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. (Exodus 12:12-13)

Apparently some of the Egyptians went with the children of Israel in the Exodus:

And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. (Exodus 12:38)

You confuse natural revelation with specific revalation. The creation indeed points to the one holy God - "The heavens declare the glory of God: And His Law is on their heart (Romans 2), but all break it (Romans 3). All men know God but not in a saving way. They know Him like the demons do - that He exists. And all sinners want to 'suppress this truth in inrighteousness' (Rom 1).

Thus natural revelation is not enough to save a man, only condemn him. He must hear the gospel (Romans 10). Absent from your reply was any reference to Romans 10.

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The text in verse 7 explicitly says he can not:

...Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In the context of the chapter, verse 5 describes the unbeliever. Paul is reminding believers to not slip into their old ways.

Dan V.

I do not agree. It says that are not subject to the LAW of God. Says nothing of the lost responding to God's calling.

 

[Dan V.]

HP: Very well. You have the right to believe as you so desire. Just the same, if that is your position you must also accept the necessited logical ends of it as well. You must also believe that God withholds the ability from some to change, thereby punishing them for something they absolutely had no way of avoiding or escaping. God must predestine the damned. God must condemn sinful man for being born the exact way He created them, and by withholding the needful abliites to change, has chosen to punish them in eternal torment for being born the way that God predestined them to be born.

Double predestination is your inescable consequent of your stated beliefs.

Paul may as well be telling you to shut your mouth! Some men are indeed vessels of wrath fit for destruction - for and to the glory of God. There is a reason why the Spirit of God uses terms like 'potter' and 'clay':

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Arminians treat Romans 9 as if 'white out' spilled on their pages.

Dan V.

 

[Dan V.]

I do not agree. It says that are not subject to the LAW of God. Says nothing of the lost responding to God's calling.

Read the last four words:

"...Neither indeed can be.

Dan V.

 

[Dan V.]

The spirit that is in man is alive and cannot die. It was created in God's image. Although the soul that sins shall die, the spirit does go on living.

It is that spirit that allows the person who is dead in trespasses and sins to respond to the Gospel. The spirit causes that one to accept the gift. The spirit causes that one to hunger and thirst after righteousness.

Again, the one dead in trespasses and sins still has the ability to respond to the gospel, for his spirit is not dead.

A man being spiritually 'dead' means that he hates God and desires to overthrow His throne and kill him (what wasdone to Christ?). He can not love whom he hates, though he exists eternally.

Sincerely,

Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: A man being spiritually 'dead' means that he hates God and desires to overthrow His throne and kill him (what wasdone to Christ?). He can not love whom he hates, though he exists eternally.

HP: You sure paint an unusual picture of men that are said to be dead. You may need to hit them again for I do believe the picture you are now painting has them coming to life.

If one was to believe what you are presenting, God is divided against Himself, authoring evil as well as good. Nothing could be further from the truth.

How many times have I heard that dead men have no will and make no choices. If they are dead as you say, who empowers them to do the things you say they do?

 

[Dan V.]

HP: You sure paint an unusual picture of men that are said to be dead. You may need to hit them again for I do believe the picture you are now painting has them coming to life.

If one was to believe what you are presenting, God is divided against Himself, authoring evil as well as good. Nothing could be further from the truth.

How many times have I heard that dead men have no will and make no choices. If they are dead as you say, who empowers them to do the things you say they do?

Spiritually dead men do have a will. And they use it continually to serve their sin. This flows out of their nature.

God is not the author of sin, though He does govern sinful men for His purposes. The crucifixion of Christ was ordained 'from the foundation of the world'.

Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: Spiritually dead men do have a will. And they use it continually to serve their sin. This flows out of their nature.

HP: And where did they get their nature?

 

[Dan V.]

HP: And where did they get their nature?

From Adam (Romans 5).

Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: From Adam (Romans 5).

HP: And what does Romans 5 say? What is the nature that we get from Adam, and where do you find that in Scripture?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Shall we cut to the chase? Who put it in Adam's heart to sin?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Read the last four words:

"...Neither indeed can be.

Dan V.

Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)
In their lost state, they cannot be subject to God's laws, but they indeed are still able to respond to His call. It is their choice to accept or reject.

That verse does not say they are unable to respond to Him, only to His laws. Read the verse carefully. It says nothing close to what you are trying to make it say.