Salvation by Works.....or Not?

[standingfirminChrist]

HP: I like for the most part your posts to Dan V.:thumbs:

I do have a couple of questions though. Can God hold man accountable for something He has already paid for on the cross? Am I mistaken in thinking that you hold to a literal payment theory, in that Christ literally paid for sins on the cross?

If Christ died for all on the cross as I believe you would say, and He literally paid the sin debt of every individual, are you not suggesting that every man and women in hell have really have had their sins paid for? Does this not make the payment made less than effective to secure its ends? Would that not indicate a lot of suffering was needless, seeing that it in the end made no difference to those in hell that you insinuate had their sins paid for? Would not the economy of God in the suffering and death of Jesus be seen as wasteful and ineffective, having paid fro sins that were never actually remitted?

Christ did pay for the sins of mankind on the cross. If any man goes to hell, he goes with his sins already paid for. What they go to hell for is rejecting the Son and the offer of eternal life through His shed blood.

Christ offers this to all. He was lifted up and He does draw all men unto Him, but many resist that drawing.

Remember what He told the Pharisees?

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)

He told them that the Scripture they held to be honored and revered testified of Himself. But then, He went on to say:

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:40)

Life was offered to them, but they would not come to Him for life.

 

[Dan V.]

Christ did pay for the sins of mankind on the cross. If any man goes to hell, he goes with his sins already paid for. What they go to hell for is rejecting the Son and the offer of eternal life through His shed blood.

Christ offers this to all. He was lifted up and He does draw all men unto Him, but many resist that drawing.

Remember what He told the Pharisees?

He told them that the Scripture they held to be honored and revered testified of Himself. But then, He went on to say:

Life was offered to them, but they would not come to Him for life.

Once again (and not surprisingly) you have failed to comment on the scriptures I mentioned in the previous post, because you can't. It's impossible.

As for your statement that "men go to hell for rejecting the Son", it is evident that you have not thought this through.

Men go to hell because they die in their sins.

If they happen to hear the gospel and reject Christ, their sin is compounded.

Thus, if your statement is true:

"...What they go to hell for is rejecting the Son and the offer of eternal life through His shed blood..."

Then why bother preaching the gospel? Those who haven't heard the gospel will then not be guilty of rejecting something which they have not heard.

Look at it this way:

How do you account for the fact that you've recieved Christ and your unsaved neighbor who has heard the gospel has not?

Sincerely,

Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: Men go to hell because they die in their sins.
If they happen to hear the gospel and reject Christ, their sin is compounded.

HP: Although I agree with you here, as you have so far expressed your views, I believe I can assume that you would also believe in double predestination, i.e., predestination of the damned as well as the saved. Am I not right? May I ask you, what kind of a god would create and predestine a creature that had absolutely no choice in being a sinner, refuse to even allow for the possibility of an escape, and then torment them in an eternal hell for being and acting in accordance to the very thing they were created for?

SFIC: "...What they go to hell for is rejecting the Son and the offer of eternal life through His shed blood..."

DanV: Then why bother preaching the gospel? Those who haven't heard the gospel will then not be guilty of rejecting something which they have not heard.

HP: Why preach the gospel if in fact only those predestined to salvation will respond, and their response is NOT due to your preaching but rather due to being necessitated as saved due to election? If I am hearing you right it is absolutely impossible for one that has been predestined to miss or lose salvation , so again, why preach the gospel? Are you going to tell us that your efforts have something to do with the salvation of souls? Is that not salvation by your works?

DanV: How do you account for the fact that you've recieved Christ and your unsaved neighbor who has heard the gospel has not?

HP:I would respond, I have repented of my sins and looked to Christ in faith, and have the present testimony within my heart that have and am born again. My unsaved neighbor will have to tell you for himself why he has either failed to hear the gospel preached or has refuse to accept the offer and fulfill the conditions God has mandated in order to be saved. I trust that they will have the opportunity to respond to the gospel by my contact with them. I hope that I have lived an exemplary life before them that would encourage them to desire the life that I live before God.

 

[Linda64]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(Joh 6:44)

The Bible does not teach that man is unable to respond to the Gospel. Just the opposite is true--the Bible teaches that God gives light to every man (John 1:9) and draws ALL men unto Himself (John 12:32). He convicts men through the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). Double predestination is unbiblical.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:9

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John 16:8

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Linda: Double predestination is unbiblical.

HP: I agree. Double predestination is the necessitated logical outcome of believing that God has to regenerate man in order for man to be saved, among other beliefs.

Let me ask some questions. Is there anything man has to do in order to be saved? Are their conditions that one must fulfill in order to be saved? Is man, in his natural state able to hear and respond to the gospel without receiving special enabling grace to respond? When the gospel is presented, does sinful man honestly have a choice in either accepting or rejecting God’s offer, or is he necessitated to respond in agreement with God’s foreknowledge? Is man the actual cause of his choices or are they in actuality nothing more than the necessitated outcome of choices God has predetermined would come about, and as such God being the and only actual cause?

 

[Dan V.]

HP: Although I agree with you here, as you have so far expressed your views, I believe I can assume that you would also believe in double predestination, i.e., predestination of the damned as well as the saved. Am I not right? May I ask you, what kind of a god would create and predestine a creature that had absolutely no choice in being a sinner?


DV: The sinner has choices before him, but all his choices flow out of his sinful nature - sinng always. The bad tree will only yield bad fruit. He sins because he wants to.


HP:... refuse to even allow for the possibility of an escape, and then torment them in an eternal hell for being and acting in accordance to the very thing they were created for?

DV: Some men were created and predestined as vessels as wrath:

Rom. 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God does not prevent men from repenting. Or Heaven. He gives them over to their already existant debased minds (Rom. 1).




HP: Why preach the gospel if in fact only those predestined to salvation will respond, and their response is NOT due to your preaching but rather due to being necessitated as saved due to election?

DV: God has not only ordained the ends (salvation of the elect), but the means...the preaching of the Word (Rom. 10) coupled with the quickening work of the Spirit (Titus 3:5).



HP:I would respond, I have repented of my sins and looked to Christ in faith, and have the present testimony within my heart that have and am born again. My unsaved neighbor will have to tell you for himself why he has either failed to hear the gospel preached or has refuse to accept the offer and fulfill the conditions God has mandated in order to be saved.

DV:
This pushed the question back a step further. How do you then account for the fact that you "have repented of my sins and looked to Christ in faith" and your unsaved neighbor has not?

Here's a few additional scripture thus far ignored:

John 6:44 'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.."

This text shows man's lack of ability in his own nature.

John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

So much for the 'God loves everyone the same' idea! Here's is the effectual working of grace on some. Not all.

Sincerely,

Dan V.

 

[Dan V.]

HP: I agree. Double predestination is the necessitated logical outcome of believing that God has to regenerate man in order for man to be saved, among other beliefs.

Let me ask some questions. Is there anything man has to do in order to be saved? Are their conditions that one must fulfill in order to be saved? Is man, in his natural state able to hear and respond to the gospel without receiving special enabling grace to respond? When the gospel is presented, does sinful man honestly have a choice in either accepting or rejecting God’s offer, or is he necessitated to respond in agreement with God’s foreknowledge? Is man the actual cause of his choices or are they in actuality nothing more than the necessitated outcome of choices God has predetermined would come about, and as such God being the and only actual cause?

You are asking the right questions. The natural man is dead towards loving God (Gen 2:17). Saved men are described as being previously dead, and then being made alive (quickened)

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Why do I bother with all of this discussion? Because God does it all. He is the cause. Our wills are the effect. And most importantly.... God gets all the glory! None to you and me. Those who think they are saved because they made a choice, haven't fully comprehended the power of the gospel.

Respectfully,

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Here's a few additional scripture thus far ignored:

John 6:44 'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.."

This text shows man's lack of ability in his own nature.

John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

So much for the 'God loves everyone the same' idea! Here's is the effectual working of grace on some. Not all.

Sincerely,

Dan V.

The drawing has been done. You seem to be ignoring Jesus' promise, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me." The Lord was lifted up, on the cross. And He is not a liar contrary to what you are trying to say. He is drawing all men, not just some.

 

[Dan V.]

The drawing has been done. You seem to be ignoring Jesus' promise, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me." The Lord was lifted up, on the cross. And He is not a liar contrary to what you are trying to say. He is drawing all men, not just some.

Again, you have not compared scripture with scripture. Jesus drawing all men to himself means all types of men...Jew and gentile. This is how this passage plays out when considered with numerous other scriptures which more clearly indicate that God elects some.

You continue to ignore these other accounts in scripture. This is why you hold to your position.

Respectfully,

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Jesus did not say 'All types of men." Don't add to Scripture. He said 'All men.'

Peter did not say 'all types of men,' he said 'all men.'

I hold my position because the Bible teaches my position.

 

[Dan V.]

Jesus did not say 'All types of men." Don't add to Scripture. He said 'All men.'

Peter did not say 'all types of men,' he said 'all men.'

I hold my position because the Bible teaches my position.

I am not adding to scripture. You are not comparing scripture with scripture.

Sincerely,

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have compared Scripture with Scripture. As pointed out by HP, the Total Inability concept can not be when one realizes that if only certain people are predestined to eternal life in Christ then the command by Jesus to preach the gospel would be foolish. For those supposed elect would be saved whether they heard the gospel or not since they were predestined to be in Christ.

The T in TULIP is pure nonsense when compared with the Word of God.

 

[Dan V.]

I have compared Scripture with Scripture. As pointed out by HP, the Total Inability concept can not be when one realizes that if only certain people are predestined to eternal life in Christ then the command by Jesus to preach the gospel would be foolish. For those supposed elect would be saved whether they heard the gospel or not since they were predestined to be in Christ.

The T in TULIP is pure nonsense when compared with the Word of God.

You are incorrect. The command by Jesus to preach the gospel is the primary means with which God saves. The spirit quickens the elect on the hearing of His word preached. This is why they respond. I have detailed all of these truths with scripture. You have ignored all of them

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You have an answer for everything... even if the answer is wrong.

I am through with discussing to one who will not hear the Truth as it is written in God's Word.

 

[Dan V.]

You have an answer for everything... even if the answer is wrong.

I am through with discussing to one who will not hear the Truth as it is written in God's Word.

Your refusal to repond to each scripture I've posted speaks for itself.

I hope you change your mind and see that God changed our hearts first. He gets all the glory. You and I get none. Otherwise you take credit for yourself in your 'decision'.

Respectfully,

Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: Here's a few additional scripture thus far ignored:

John 6:44 'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.."

HP: No one is ignoring your Scriptures. All of us are pressed for time at one time or another. I will try and respond to every one if you are patient. I will start with this one.

Danv: This text shows man's lack of ability in his own nature.

HP: Why does this verse have to be seen as man lacking the ability to come? If in fact ‘all men,’ as Scripture states can come if they hear and respond, is proof that God has granted to all men the necessary abilities to come to Him. There is absolutely nothing in this verse that states or implies a lack of abilities on the part of some, nor does it state or imply that God has not naturally given all men the ability to respond.

This Scripture simply states that there is nothing in and of mans own design and causation that would influence one to seek God without God being the cause of the influence. God is saying that man cannot, apart from Gods plans and design, create a method whereby a sinner can have a right relationship with God without God being the cause of the plan, the drawing, and or influence revealing that plan. Of a truth, no man comes to Christ unless God draws him. God alone is the Sole Designer and Implementer of any and all influences that enable ‘all’ with the requisite abilities to come to Him, just as the text states and implies.

 

[reformedbeliever]

HP: That is indeed true. What it is not saying is that mans will is not active in the salvation process. It is simply stating that the will of man is not the grounds of salvation. We cannot simply ‘will’ a plan of salvation into effect. God is the sole Author of salvation. The plan of salvation and the possibility of eternal life it genders was not, is not, and will never be, the product of man’s will.

Then why doesn't God save the natives in the furthest reaches of the jungle.... who have never heard of Christ?

 

[reformedbeliever]

HP: You have it exactly backwards once again. We are not born again so we can repent And believe, we repent and believe so that we can be regenerated, i.e., born again.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

So what was it that was better in you to cause you to believe when another would not? Now you have reason to boast.

 

[reformedbeliever]

HP: Do you have another question?:smilewinkgrin:

Seriously, God alone can weigh all the motives and intents of the heart. When dealing with moral agents, agents that God has empowered as first causes of their moral intents, there is no right answer as to the reasons we chose or refuse certain influences.

Take a pair of identical twin, raised in the same conditions and surroundings with the same moral input. One may chose to follow God and the other reject God and perish. Sure we can sometimes have a guess as to why one chooses a certain way, but that is what it amounts to, a guess.

My only answer to your question, which may or may not satisfy the desires of either your or my intellect completely, is that ‘true fortitude of knowledge consists in not allowing the things we cannot understand to confuse the things we know with certainty.’ (Algernon Sydney I believe was the one that said something to that effect) We know for certain that God praises and blames man for intents, therefore we know that man is the first cause of his intents, and as such responsible for them. I will have to wait till we stand before Him to figure out all the whys. We can to a degree ascertain the nature of many choices, whether or not it was selfishness or benevolence driving the choice, but even then we have to allow God to make that final judgment as to all the motivation involved. Will not the God of the Universe do right?

Even in my own life, I cannot answer why I chose to follow God. There were many reasons I am certain, some I was cognizant of and others were deeply embedded in my subconscious. Oh the easy response would be that I saw God’s great love for me and I chose to follow Him. That has a nice ring to it and is certainly true in a sense, but God also awakened me to the fact that my life might be over in a second, and I was not prepared to meet Him. The death of a close friend had a tremendous impact on the timing of turning my life over tot God. I know God used fear of facing Him without a pure heart as one motivation of great influence in my life. I also had the wonderful privilege of seeing Christ modeled in the lives of my godly parents and numerous other individuals that God saw fit to cross paths with me. The prayers of others I KNOW had an impact on my life. How God does that , or how prqayer affects the lives of others, I cannot answer, but I know that prayer changes things because God said it does!

Oh God, help us to pray effectively to see souls won for your kingdom. Help me to live a righteous life before You with the strength You have promised and provided for us. Help us on this list to provoke one another to good works and to fervent intercession for others.

The Bible gives us the answer. We are born again of God, not human will. John 1:12-13

 

[reformedbeliever]

Faith requires action, or as James put it, "Faith without works is dead."
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



When the Word is given and a man believes in that Word of God he will act on it. That's why it is totally and absolutely necessary for you to believe in the Gospel.
I heard the gospel message that said if I died without Christ I would go to hell. I believed this to be true. It troubled me. I feared God because of my faith, I called on God because of my faith, I seek to live for God because of my faith.

I was warned of God concerning the things not seen as yet, i.e. my eternal damnation in rejecting Him. I was so moved by fear that I accepted the only hope of my salvation, Jesus Christ.

Belief is an exercise of the will. We are not born again of our will but God's.