Salvation by Works.....or Not?

[Linda64]

HP: After reading the passages you set forth I have a question. Define what it means to you for God to be sovereign. I do not see the word 'sovereign' in any verses you quote, so I am unsure as to what that means to you.

Here's the definition of "sovereign" from Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

Webster's 1828 Dictionary [K-Z]
sovereign
SOVEREIGN, a. suv'eran. We retain this babarous orthography from the Norman sovereign. The true spelling would be suveran from the L. supernes, superus.

1. Supreme in power; possessing supreme dominion; as a sovereign ruler of the universe.

2. Supreme; superior to all others; chief. God is the sovereign good of all who love and obey him.

3. Supremely efficacious; superior to all others; predominant; effectual; as a sovereign remedy.

4. Supreme; pertaining to the first magistrate of a nation; as sovereign authority.

SOVEREIGN, n. suv'eran.

1. A supreme lord or ruler; one who possesses the highest authority without control. Some earthly princes, kings and emperors are sovereigns in their dominions.

2. A supreme magistrate; a king.

3. A gold coin of England, value 20s or $4.44

The first two definitions describe God. God is the supreme ruler--He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Linda: The first two definitions describe God. God is the supreme ruler--He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

HP: So who is the party denoted as the 'first cause' of the intents of mans heart? Is it a Sovereign God, or is it man as God in His sovereignty has chosen to grant man the power?

 

[Linda64]

HP: So who is the party denoted as the 'first cause' of the intents of mans heart? Is it a Sovereign God, or is it man as God in His sovereignty has chosen to grant man the power?

God doesn't "cause" man to choose one way or the other. Man has free will--that is the way in which God has created man. Is that what you mean by "first cause"? I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly. Man is not a robot--he is a free agent.

Man's choice (either good or evil) does not affect God's sovereignty. God remains sovereign because that is the nature of God and man cannot change the nature of God. God is immutable (changeless).

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Linda: God doesn't "cause" man to choose one way or the other. Man has free will--that is the way in which God has created man. Is that what you mean by "first cause"? I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly. Man is not a robot--he is a free agent.

HP: It is the tool of deception to take terms such as freedom of the will and twist it to imply something in actuality contrary to freedom. I am NOT saying that you are doing that, just establishing a point due to the many that in fact do just that. Let me clarify.

There are those that speak of freedom of the will, but they define it as ‘freedom to do as one wills.’ There is not the least shred of freedom in that if it is examined in the light of truth. Freedom can only exist where the possibility exists that one can do something other than one does under the very same set of circumstances. Freedom can only exist if there are two or more possible consequents for a given antecedent. If there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, freedom is a chimera and does not exist.

If the outcome is necessitated apart from man choosing, and what is ‘seen’ as his choosing is simply the necessitated results of force or coercion, it matters not if one says that such a one is ‘free to do as he wills,’ he is not under freedom but under coercion.

If freedom of the will exists, God must allow man to actually be the first cause of forming his intents. Many things may influence the will of man, but nothing can determine the formed intents apart from man himself if freedom of the will is present. Deny this truth and you not only deny true freedom of the will, but you deny morality at its core. Freedom lies not in the relationship sustained between the will and the actual carrying out of the intent, but rather freedom only lies antecedent to the doing, in the actual formation of the intent. The will sustains to the doing the relationship of necessity. One can ‘only’ do as they will. If they do something different, it is living proof that they formed a different intent. Again, freedom of the will only exists prior to the actual doing, in the formation of the intent, in being the first cause of them.

 

[BobRyan]

All that has discussed is that man, being higher than the beasts, has an ability to reason between two choices. No one can deny that.

What has not been determined is that man in an unregenerate state has no desire to be saved, and from where does the desire to be saved come from. IE the drowning man doesn't even realize he is drowning yet, at what point does he realize this, and what causes it?

Romans 3 appears to argue that ALL (no exceptions) are inclined due to the sinful nature to shut out God.

But John 12:32 says God overrules that - He "sovereignly DRAWS ALL unto Him".

So God "enables" what the Romans 3 principle of depravity "disables" such that God says to all "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears AND OPENS the door I will then COME IN".

Just as we see Him doing in John 1 as "the light of the world that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Romans 3 appears to argue ........

HP: Zero +2-2 is still zero. In reality nothing has changed. You say that depravity disables, but God enables what has been disabled. That is a wash as I see it. I believe one can properly conclude then that being enabled is nothing more than the natural consequent of being human, part of our nature, for it is universal according to you. If this enabling is not a part of what is now our human nature, when does this enabling occur? Have any died before this enabling takes place? If so, how could they have heard? What about infants or small children? Have they been enabled or does it come at some later time? If it comes at some later time, how can you say 'all' have heard? Heard what? The gospel? I think not.

I see mega problems with what you are presenting BR. When did you have the gospel presented to you?

 

[Linda64]

HP: It is the tool of deception to take terms such as freedom of the will and twist it to imply something in actuality contrary to freedom. I am NOT saying that you are doing that, just establishing a point due to the many that in fact do just that. Let me clarify.

There are those that speak of freedom of the will, but they define it as ‘freedom to do as one wills.’ There is not the least shred of freedom in that if it is examined in the light of truth. Freedom can only exist where the possibility exists that one can do something other than one does under the very same set of circumstances. Freedom can only exist if there are two or more possible consequents for a given antecedent. If there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, freedom is a chimera and does not exist.

If the outcome is necessitated apart from man choosing, and what is ‘seen’ as his choosing is simply the necessitated results of force or coercion, it matters not if one says that such a one is ‘free to do as he wills,’ he is not under freedom but under coercion.

If freedom of the will exists, God must allow man to actually be the first cause of forming his intents. Many things may influence the will of man, but nothing can determine the formed intents apart from man himself if freedom of the will is present. Deny this truth and you not only deny true freedom of the will, but you deny morality at its core. Freedom lies not in the relationship sustained between the will and the actual carrying out of the intent, but rather freedom only lies antecedent to the doing, in the actual formation of the intent. The will sustains to the doing the relationship of necessity. One can ‘only’ do as they will. If they do something different, it is living proof that they formed a different intent. Again, freedom of the will only exists prior to the actual doing, in the formation of the intent, in being the first cause of them.

That explanation was a clear as mud. However, I did take a look at the other thread "Sovereignty of God Explained" --- what SFIC (my husband) and webdog said is what I was attempting to say. I guess it didn't come out right. God is sovereign while He allows man free will.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Linda: That explanation was a clear as mud.

HP: I am sorry I did not make myself clear to you. Pray for me as I come to mind that God will give me clarity of thought and ability to communicate truth. Without God’s help, I can indeed do nothing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: But John 12:32 says God overrules that - He "sovereignly DRAWS ALL unto Him".

HP: "And I, IF I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

What do the words “IF I” mean to you? Why do you eliminate them from the text when you quote it? Are we not in the process, as Christians, of lifting Christ up today? Certainly there is a sense in which it is referring to being lifted up on the cross, but it also directly is referring to us as believers lifting up Christ to a sinful and dying world. The message about the cross MUST be told by us in order for the cross to be effective in the sinners life. We are commanded to go and preach the good news to every creature. It is not enough for Christ to have simply died and rose again. We as believers are charged with the responsibility of continually lifting Him up before the world as co-workers with God, without which the gospel will not go forward.Even if you or I fail to do our part, God will still use MEN and WOMEN that are willing and obedient to carry out His tasks.

What do you mean by 'sovereignly drawing all men to Himself?' Has He not chosen the means of His children taking the message to the lost, without which they may never hear the good news? If God is sovereign about anything, He in His sovereignty has chosen the means of using men to spread the good news, again without which it will not be accomplished.

You have mentioned many times that God gives all men the salvation message. I ask you again, when did He give it to you? Were you a man before the message came to you? Were you one of the ‘all’ before you heard and responded? Does the possibility exist that one could die before they have heard? Could have you died before you heard the gospel message? Just when does God grant this message to man? If from birth, and universal, would it not be simply a part of our nature?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC, let me try to explain at least part of my posts to Linda to you again. I am trying to pinpoint the heart of morality and show where freedom lies and where it does not.

For starters, what doe the word Just or justice mean to you? Can God, in justice, punish or praise a man for something he has absolutely no choice in? Say for instance something is a complete accident. Will a fair and Just God punish one eternally for doing something that was not a direct product of their own volition and intent? .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Where there is no law, sin is not imputed.

I know where you are going with this, HP. No, God will not punish someone for something that they have no control over. Contrary to how many want to make God a puppetmaster and us on strings acting out our good or evil deeds only because a certain string was pulled by God.

If God really is up there causing man to kill, rape, steal, etc., then sending him to hell because of his actions he had no part in, that would make God a tyrant, IMO. But we know He does not pull strings and cause these actions. The real culprit is satan.

Satan, just as he did in Job, has to get permission to do things to God's people. Satan will try to destroy Gods people and kill them. Because of our faith in Christ, we are less apt to give in to satan. That is not to say that we won't sin from time to time, but it will not be as oft as the one who knows not Christ.

Those who have not yet come to Christ give in to sinful acts more often because it is their nature. They have not Christ in them, so they will not be able to resist the temptation to sin as easily

Greater is He that is in you, than He that is in the world.

KJG John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[Dan V.]

HP: Just the same, God forces or coeces no man to salvation. Man is the sole cause of his moral intents and the decision to either accept or reject god’s offer of salvation.h.”[/FONT][/COLOR]

This is incorrect because it begs the question. God changes the heart (by changing their stony heart into a heart of flesh - Jeremiah). He does not force, as everyone thinks. Thus God is the sole cause of morla goodness (repentence and faith) by making the 'dead' alive (Eph. 2).

Dead men don't show much interest in the things of God. Theya are dead. All of their choices will be sinful - unless God quickens them.

Dan V.

 

[Dan V.]

Are you always this paranoid?

Amen! Keep fighting the good fight. May God get all the glory in the salvation of men. We get none.

Dan V.

 

[Dan V.]

GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH -- “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Pet. 3:9)

Why does the Lord wait to establish His kingdom; why has Christ not returned? This verse teaches us that God is waiting for men to be saved, because it is not His sovereign will that any should perish. Since many will perish and since all will not come to repentance, as we know from other Scriptures, then it is obvious that God’s will can be resisted and thwarted and rejected by man. It is obvious that the sovereign God created man in such a way that this could be possible, but of course this does not mean that God has ceased to be God. It is Calvinism that defines divine sovereignty as irresistibility. The Bible upholds no such definition.

The Calvinist interprets this verse to mean that God is not willing that any of the elect perish. Arthur Pink says, ‘The ‘any’ that God is not willing should perish, are the ‘usward’ to whom God is ‘longsuffering’, the ‘beloved’ of the previous verses” (The Sovereignty of God, p. 207).

Our reply to this is, first of all, if this were the only verse that said that God is not willing that any should perish, we would be able to accept the Calvinist interpretation, but it is not. Isa. 45:22 and Matt. 11:28 and John 3:16 and John 6:40 and Rom. 11:23 and 1 Tim. 1:15-16 and 1 Tim. 2:3-4 and Rev. 22:17 are just some of the Scriptures that say that God wants to save all men.

Thus it is reasonable and Scriptural to believe that the “usward” in 2 Pet. 3:9 is mankind in general as opposed to “the elect” only.

Further, if 2 Peter 3:9 means merely that God is not willing that any of the elect should perish it uses strange language in light of the Calvinist doctrines of sovereign election and irresistible calling. To say that God is not willing that any should perish is to assume that some can perish.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/calvins-camels.html

If God wants every man to be saved, why did He not even give the gospel (in types and shadows) to the Egyptians (Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God/Rom: 10 - How will they know unless a preacher is sent?). Egypt was not even commanded to slay a Lamb and put the blood on the doorposts. all they got were plagues. And they died in their sins without hearing about the Messiah.

You have not considered this basic truth.

Dan V.

 

[Dan V.]

Where there is no law, sin is not imputed.

No, God will not punish someone for something that they have no control over. Contrary to how many want to make God a puppetmaster and us on strings acting out our good or evil deeds only because a certain string was pulled by God.

DV: This is a most unlearned response. God not not force or coerce in the manner you described. He does give them over to their debased minds (Rom. 1). Thus the sinner remains doing what he continullay ever wants to do - sin. In fact, God's soverienty over men's choices is described in terms that may make you uncomfortable:

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.


Sincerely,

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If God wants every man to be saved, why did He not even give the gospel (in types and shadows) to the Egyptians (Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God/Rom: 10 - How will they know unless a preacher is sent?). Egypt was not even commanded to slay a Lamb and put the blood on the doorposts. all they got were plagues. And they died in their sins without hearing about the Messiah.

You have not considered this basic truth.

Dan V.

Given the fact that Moses appeared before Pharaoh several times and said, Thus saith the Lord God...', and the day before the plague of locusts the Lord God sent a message to Pharaoh saying, "How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me?", I would say God revealed Himself to Pharaoh and the Egyptians often.

The Egyptians knew several years before of the Lord God through Joseph as well.

Pharaoh could have humbled himself before God and God would have had mercy on him I am sure.

The fact is, there are types and shadows all through the story of the plagues.

Pharaoh just chose to harden his heart to the Lord

Exodus 8:32 32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This is a most unlearned response. God not not force or coerce in the manner you described. He does give them over to their debased minds (Rom. 1). Thus the sinner remains doing what he continullay ever wants to do - sin. In fact, God's soverienty over men's choices is described in terms that may make you uncomfortable:

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.


Sincerely,

Dan V.

You are correct, Dan V. Yours indeed is a most unlearned response. I am so glad you warned me before I read the complete paragraph.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If man has no will to do anything for the Lord in his sinful state as you falsely imply, then the ones who are turned away in Matthew 7:21-23 would not have been turned away.

No, the truth is, man is thrown a lifering and man now has the choice of grabbing it or refusing it.

If man cannot grab that ring on his own, then man is indeed a puppet and God the puppetmaster. He can choose to make the man grab the ring and live, or make him refuse the ring and die.

That is not the God I serve. My God is not willing that any should perish. He threw out the lifering when He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world. The gift of Salvation is offered to all mankind, not just some... else God would be a respector of persons.

It is up to man to grab that lifering. God has done His part and will do no more in the Salvation of man until man accepts that shed blood sacrifice.

 

[Dan V.]

Standing Firm: No, the truth is, man is thrown a lifering and man now has the choice of grabbing it or refusing it.

.[/QUOTE]

DV: What happens when you throw a life ring to a dead man? The is how scripture describes the unregenrate (Eph. 1 - you have yet to consider this passage).

Also, in the earlier post, you failed to even respond to Prov. 21:1.

As for Mat. 7:21, this is simply the fact that there is (and will be) tares along with the wheat. Often times the unsaved sit next to you in church, but you don't know everything about them. They might even appear to be saved (as Judas did for a time).

You have yet to comment on Rom 9. This makes Arminians very uncomfortable. Romans 9 stands as it reads.

Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: This is incorrect because it begs the question. God changes the heart (by changing their stony heart into a heart of flesh - Jeremiah). He does not force, as everyone thinks. Thus God is the sole cause of morla goodness (repentence and faith) by making the 'dead' alive (Eph. 2).

HP: If I did not know better I would agree in the most part with your post. Your post has a ring of truth to it. The problem is that in another post you will show yourself completely inconsistent with this one. Which one shall I believe? If there is no force, pray tell me where the power is if one is unable to respond, unable to repent, unable to do anything other than float down the stream as would a dead log? There is a difference between a sinner being a victim of his nature and circumstances, and being the willing rebel God calls him.

You say God changes the heart, and I agree with that. Just the same, God calls on the sinner to change his own heart.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
“ Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.” Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
Jer 17:5 ¶ Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.( I just I might throw this one in)

Yes, God promises to give us a new heart and we are commanded to change our own heart. How are you going to harmonize the two concepts if in fact man is unable to do what God commands?

The truth of the matter is that man possesses all the requisite abilities to do what God commands of him. He is no dead log, he is a willing rebel. Read what God told Cain.

Repentance and faith are not the job of God. He commands me to exercise their wills in repentance and faith. God is the sole fountain of moral goodness, but God commands man and all sentient beings to produce moral goodness and righteousness. We are made in the image of God, able to produce righteousness acceptable to God. If that shocks you, do a word study on the word righteous. I am not saying that once one has sinned that God will accept any right acts as payment for any wrong sinful acts, but that once our hearts have been purified by faith for sins that are past, we are well able to please God with righteous acts before Him.

If you don’t believe me fine. Believe David, a man after God’s own heart. “The Lord has rewarded me according to MY righteousness. By the cleanliness of my hands hath He recompensed me.”