Salvation by Works.....or Not?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: If God wants every man to be saved, why did He not even give the gospel (in types and shadows) to the Egyptians (Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God/Rom: 10 - How will they know unless a preacher is sent?).

HP: Let me quote to you a passage that speaks directly to your question. “God’s ways are higher than our ways.” Why has God chosen the means of spreading the gospel by the often inadequate means of man spreading it? Who knows the mind of God? Just the same, in His wisdom He has chosen the means He has chosen. Will not the Judge of the earth do right with those that have not heard? I for one believe that He will. Does not God love those that may never hear? Yes, and God has provided the means by which they can be saved if they will have the opportunity afforded them by man spreading the gospel and they willingly respond to the message.

God is under no obligation to save even one man. He is not unjust by allowing some to be reached with the message of hope and others not able to hear. He has chosen the means, which is not some arbitrary means, but has chosen to allow man to carry forth the message to a lost and dying world. When we get to heaven we can ask God as to why he allowed such human frailty this important task. Maybe we will not have to even ask then. It may be evidently clear as He rewards those believers for their faithfulness to the task of being found worthy of ‘co-workers together with Him’ in the harvest of souls.

 

[Dan V.]

HP: If I did not know better I would agree in the most part with your post. Your post has a ring of truth to it. The problem is that in another post you will show yourself completely inconsistent with this one. Which one shall I believe? If there is no force, pray tell me where the power is if one is unable to respond, unable to repent, unable to do anything other than float down the stream as would a dead log? There is a difference between a sinner being a victim of his nature and circumstances, and being the willing rebel God calls him.

You say God changes the heart, and I agree with that. Just the same, God calls on the sinner to change his own heart.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
“ Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.” Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
Jer 17:5 ¶ Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.( I just I might throw this one in)

Yes, God promises to give us a new heart and we are commanded to change our own heart. How are you going to harmonize the two concepts if in fact man is unable to do what God commands?

The truth of the matter is that man possesses all the requisite abilities to do what God commands of him. He is no dead log, he is a willing rebel. Read what God told Cain.

Repentance and faith are not the job of God. He commands me to exercise their wills in repentance and faith. God is the sole fountain of moral goodness, but God commands man and all sentient beings to produce moral goodness and righteousness. We are made in the image of God, able to produce righteousness acceptable to God. If that shocks you, do a word study on the word righteous. I am not saying that once one has sinned that God will accept any right acts as payment for any wrong sinful acts, but that once our hearts have been purified by faith for sins that are past, we are well able to please God with righteous acts before Him.

If you don’t believe me fine. Believe David, a man after God’s own heart. “The Lord has rewarded me according to MY righteousness. By the cleanliness of my hands hath He recompensed me.”

DV: The force or power doing the change is the Spirit of God (Eph. 2:1-3, John 5:21; Titus 3:5). there are numerous OT passages of God describing Himself as the One doing the washing and cleansing, after He has commanded sinners to do so - something they can not do it. They are spiritually dead. and thus unable (Rom 8:7).

Though we are in the image of God (we think, reason feel, etc.), we do no rightousness (Rom 3:10). This is because the image, though not obliterated, it is polluted in our every faculty. Your quote from Jer. 17:5 prooves my point - the man who relies on his own will relies on himself - man.

God grants the ability to change to some - His elect. Note John 17:9 and Acts 13:48 which accounts why some believe.

Finally every sinner is a willing rebel of God - not merely a victim. We all fell in Adam (Rom. 5)


Please examine all of these scriptures.


Sincerely,

Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: the truth is, man is thrown a life ring and man now has the choice of grabbing it or refusing it.

If man cannot grab that ring on his own, then man is indeed a puppet and God the puppet master. He can choose to make the man grab the ring and live, or make him refuse the ring and die.

That is not the God I serve. My God is not willing that any should perish. He threw out the life ring when He sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world. The gift of Salvation is offered to all mankind, not just some... else God would be a respecter of persons.

It is up to man to grab that life ring. God has done His part and will do no more in the Salvation of man until man accepts that shed blood sacrifice.

HP: Now here is a post filled with Scriptural truth.:thumbsup:

I would have but one small exception to make. Although the offer is indeed sufficient for all, and God desires that all should hear and accept the offer, because of the means He has chosen to disseminate the gospel, reasons known only to Himself, all have not heard and all have not responded. This is one of the points I am BR are in clear disagreement over.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Standing Firm: No, the truth is, man is thrown a lifering and man now has the choice of grabbing it or refusing it.

.

DV: What happens when you throw a life ring to a dead man? The is how scripture describes the unregenrate (Eph. 1 - you have yet to consider this passage).

Also, in the earlier post, you failed to even respond to Prov. 21:1.

As for Mat. 7:21, this is simply the fact that there is (and will be) tares along with the wheat. Often times the unsaved sit next to you in church, but you don't know everything about them. They might even appear to be saved (as Judas did for a time).

You have yet to comment on Rom 9. This makes Arminians very uncomfortable. Romans 9 stands as it reads.

Dan V.[/quote]

It is funny. You say a dead man cannot grab a hold of a life ring because there is no life in him, yet you contradict yourself by saying that he is able to continue sinning.

Quit comparing spiritual death with physical death and you may understand what the Scripture truly says.

 

[Dan V.]

HP: Now here is a post filled with Scriptural truth.:thumbsup:

I would have but one small exception to make. Although the offer is indeed sufficient for all, and God desires that all should hear and accept the offer.....

DV: God did not desire to save Esau. (Jacob have I loved, Esau I hated),

....because of the means He has chosen to disseminate the gospel, reasons known only to Himself, all have not heard and all have not responded. This is one of the points I am BR are in clear disagreement over.

On the contrary, the preaching of the gosple is the means with which God saves His elect from every nation:

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And:

Rom. 10:17 "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"

Sincerely,

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Matthew 23:37 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not

Man has a choice. Jesus offered to take Jerusalem in, BUT THEY WOULD NOT.

They would not come to Him that they might have life. They chose not to come.

The gospel is offered to all. Not all accept the gospel. It is of their own choice. God is not going to make a person remain in sin and then punish him for being in sin. To say otherwise is just plain foolishness.

The gift is offered to all. It was paid for by Christ on the cross. His shed blood was for each and every sinner in the world. "and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world."

The Grace is offered to all. "Let him that is athirst come." Every man, woman, and child who does not know Christ as Lord and Savior is offered the water of life. Those who do not know Him are thirsty, and He calls them to drink freely.

 

[Dan V.]

DV: What happens when you throw a life ring to a dead man? The is how scripture describes the unregenrate (Eph. 1 - you have yet to consider this passage).

Also, in the earlier post, you failed to even respond to Prov. 21:1.

As for Mat. 7:21, this is simply the fact that there is (and will be) tares along with the wheat. Often times the unsaved sit next to you in church, but you don't know everything about them. They might even appear to be saved (as Judas did for a time).

You have yet to comment on Rom 9. This makes Arminians very uncomfortable. Romans 9 stands as it reads.

Dan V.

It is funny. You say a dead man cannot grab a hold of a life ring because there is no life in him, yet you contradict yourself by saying that he is able to continue sinning.

Quit comparing spiritual death with physical death and you may understand what the Scripture truly says.[/QUOTE]

The sinner (physically alive) is alive to sin, yet dead to God.

Dan V.

 

[Linda64]

It is funny. You say a dead man cannot grab a hold of a life ring because there is no life in him, yet you contradict yourself by saying that he is able to continue sinning.

Quit comparing spiritual death with physical death and you may understand what the Scripture truly says.
The sinner (physically alive) is alive to sin, yet dead to God.

Dan V.

First of all, you need to learn how to use the QUOTE function. You are misquoting SFIC saying what you said.

It is funny. You say a dead man cannot grab a hold of a life ring because there is no life in him, yet you contradict yourself by saying that he is able to continue sinning.

Quit comparing spiritual death with physical death and you may understand what the Scripture truly says.

Secondly, you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. You compare physical death to spiritual death when it suits your purpose to make your theology "fit"--and when it doesn't suit your purpose, it's just the opposite. Which is it? Are we physically dead or spiritually dead? Your logic is illogical, to say the least.

 

[Dan V.]

The unregerate man is dead toward God (Gen 2:15, Eph. 2:1). All his faculties serve his sin.

Dan V.

 

[Dan V.]

Man has a choice.

The gospel is offered to all. .

Egypt did not have the gospel offered to them. Only judgements.

Israel had the gospel presented to them in types and shadows.

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Moses and Aaron told Pharaoh of the living God and His desire for His people to worship Him. The Gospel was presented to Pharaoh.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 3 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[Dan V.]

Moses and Aaron told Pharaoh of the living God and His desire for His people to worship Him. The Gospel was presented to Pharaoh.

Which chapter and verse mentioned the atoning work of Christ to the Egyptians? Why didn'y God tell Egypt to also slay a passover lamb? Or any of the Canaanites?

Dan V.

 

[Linda64]

The unregerate man is dead toward God (Gen 2:15, Eph. 2:1). All his faculties serve his sin.

Dan V.

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. (Genesis 2:15)

This was before the fall--how could Adam be unregenerate at that time? The very next verse is God's command:

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)

This does not say we were quickened BEFORE salvation--only that we were quickened. The Bible says that WHEN we believe we receive eternal life. The quickening is AFTER we believe, not BEFORE. There is no scripture which states that man is "unable" to respond to the Gospel in an unregenerate state. God gives light to every man and men CHOSE darkness rather than light.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9)

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:40)

The "will not come to me" implies choice. It does not say, "ye cannot come to me".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: God grants the ability to change to some - His elect. Note John 17:9 and Acts 13:48 which accounts why some believe.

HP: Very well. You have the right to believe as you so desire. Just the same, if that is your position you must also accept the necessited logical ends of it as well. You must also believe that God withholds the ability from some to change, thereby punishing them for something they absolutely had no way of avoiding or escaping. God must predestine the damned. God must condemn sinful man for being born the exact way He created them, and by withholding the needful abliites to change, has chosen to punish them in eternal torment for being born the way that God predestined them to be born.

Double predestination is your inescable consequent of your stated beliefs.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Linda: The Bible says that WHEN we believe we receive eternal life. The quickening is AFTER we believe, not BEFORE. There is no scripture which states that man is "unable" to respond to the Gospel in an unregenerate state. God gives light to every man and men CHOSE darkness rather than light.

HP: It could not be stated more in accordance to the truth of Scripture.:thumbsup:

 

[Linda64]

Which chapter and verse mentioned the atoning work of Christ to the Egyptians? Why didn'y God tell Egypt to also slay a passover lamb? Or any of the Canaanites?

Dan V.

Here's the reason, in Romans 1:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (Romans 1:18-22)

The Egyptians saw the power of God in the plagues and they would not let the children of Israel go. "Their foolish heart was darkened"--it's not that they were "unable" to let the children of Israel go, they CHOSE not to let them go--therefore God sent the final plague "the slaying of the first born son" to Egypt. Pharaoh had already hardened his heart--he had witnessed the power of God. The application of the blood to the lintels and doorposts of the homes of the children of Israel was in the form of a "cross"--which was a foreshadow of the cross of Christ, our Passover.

For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. (Exodus 12:12-13)

Apparently some of the Egyptians went with the children of Israel in the Exodus:

And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. (Exodus 12:38)

 

[Dan V.]

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. (Genesis 2:15)

This was before the fall--how could Adam be unregenerate at that time? The very next verse is God's command:

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)

This does not say we were quickened BEFORE salvation--only that we were quickened. The Bible says that WHEN we believe we receive eternal life. The quickening is AFTER we believe, not BEFORE. There is no scripture which states that man is "unable" to respond to the Gospel in an unregenerate state. God gives light to every man and men CHOSE darkness rather than light.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9)

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:40)

The "will not come to me" implies choice. It does not say, "ye cannot come to me".

Thank you for the verse correction - I meant Gen 2:17.

I've already given you two proof texts demonstrating man's spiritual death. There is a reason why the bible uses this term. Dead means just that. Dead. All the more it demonstrates that a dead man can not make himself alive. God has to make him alive.

John 1:9 is an account of the Law of God written on man's concience - the unregenrate do have a basic sense of right and wrong. This is why he would cry foul if his house is robbed. This Law on his heart (Rom. 2) is the light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9)/ A proper term for this would be common grace. It is also this light on man's conscience which condemns him - bearing witness that he has broken God's Law, for 'all have sinned'.

As for John 5:40, when compared to Romans 8:7;

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

explains why man 'will not come to Him'. Because he can not.

Hope This Helps,

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The spirit that is in man is alive and cannot die. It was created in God's image. Although the soul that sins shall die, the spirit does go on living.

It is that spirit that allows the person who is dead in trespasses and sins to respond to the Gospel. The spirit causes that one to accept the gift. The spirit causes that one to hunger and thirst after righteousness.

Again, the one dead in trespasses and sins still has the ability to respond to the gospel, for his spirit is not dead.

 

[Rippon]

SFIC : If you insist that ones spirit/soul is not dead in trespasses and sins -- are you somehow saying that the body is dead in sin ?!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Rippon,

If you will do a careful study, you will find the spirit and the soul are not the same.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the soul that dies when one sins, not the spirit. The spirit cannot die.