Salvation by Works.....or Not?

[BobRyan]

The Bible says nowhere that we repent before regeneration...if i am mistaken please site a verse.
We are called to repent and believe, but God must regenerate us first othewise we are dead in our sins. A dead man can do nothing before he is regenerated.

On page one you say that AFTER we are regenerate -- (some time afterwards?) we are later born-again.

What is regeneration in the Bible that is NOT the new birth of John 3?, that is NOT the new Creation of 2Cor 5?

Text please.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

But our free will is always a servant to our nature. And in our sinful state our nature is anti-God and pro-sin..

Even in this analogy, the sinful state or nature does not always win or cause man to sin. There are people who have good moral ethics even without God. This also says a sinful man can make a good divine choice like giving their life to God.

 

[larryjf]

so, larry, you are saying that Christ is throwing out the lifeline foolishly? Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree.

The Word tells us that Christ shed His blood for the sins of the whole world. Not some, not few, but all.

Christ throws out the lifeline. He gives us the Gospel. It is up to us to grab that lifeline and be pulled in to safety.

I do not believe that Christ died for every single person in the whole world. If He did, then He could have only died for a possibility of salvation and not to secure salvation since not all are saved.
Christ died for His sheep only...

just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. (Joh 10:15)

The "whole world" in context to salvation passages is speaking to the idea that Christ is not only for Israel as in the Old economy, but is for the whole world. That is not to say that He died for every individual, just that He died fall all types and kinds of man.

We do preach the Gospel to everybody, but that's because we can't know who Christ has died for, that is part of His hidden will.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Bible says nowhere that we repent before regeneration...if i am mistaken please site a verse.
We are called to repent and believe, but God must regenerate us first othewise we are dead in our sins. A dead man can do nothing before he is regenerated.


But our free will is always a servant to our nature. And in our sinful state our nature is anti-God and pro-sin.

If everybody has a natural choice to come to Christ and it doesn't have to happen after regeneration, then there is something inherently better in those of us who chose Christ that is not in those who have not.

quit comparing spiritually dead with naturally dead. A naturally dead person can do nothing until the last day when the Lord shall call him out of the grave.

The soul is spiritually dead, but that does not mean it can do nothing.

If it were true that we could do nothing, then we could not even choose to sin in our spiritually dead state.

He that cometh to Me will I give of the water of Life. That person does not experience life before coming to Christ. In order to come to Christ, that one must grab the lifeline... he must receive the gospel.

The Apostles were told to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Why did Jesus not say go to certain areas and preach only to a select few?

Because He is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

 

[larryjf]

Even in this analogy, the sinful state or nature does not always win or cause man to sin. There are people who have good moral ethics even without God. This also says a sinful man can make a good divine choice like giving their life to God.

You are mistaking what it means to be good.
A good act must have as its source faith in God, and as its goal the glory of God. Therefore sinful ungodly man can't do good.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Rom 14:23 - ...For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I do not believe that Christ died for every single person in the whole world.

Then you do not believe the Written Word of God.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

What part of 'not for ours only', and 'sins of the whole world' do you have a problem believing?

 

[larryjf]

quit comparing spiritually dead with naturally dead. A naturally dead person can do nothing until the last day when the Lord shall call him out of the grave.

The soul is spiritually dead, but that does not mean it can do nothing.

If it were true that we could do nothing, then we could not even choose to sin in our spiritually dead state.

He that cometh to Me will I give of the water of Life. That person does not experience life before coming to Christ. In order to come to Christ, that one must grab the lifeline... he must receive the gospel.

The Apostles were told to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Why did Jesus not say go to certain areas and preach only to a select few?

Because He is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

I did not infer that we could do nothing...only that we can do nothing spiritually good, and that is because we are spiritually dead.
As far as not choosing sin....sin is equated with death as the wages of sin are death. That goes hand-in-hand with being spiritually dead. We only do works that lead to death...sin.

Yes, we must receive the Gospel, but that can only come after the Father draws us to Christ through regeneration...

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Joh 6:44)

 

[larryjf]

Then you do not believe the Written Word of God.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

What part of 'not for ours only', and 'sins of the whole world' do you have a problem believing?

I already explained the context of "whole world" in my post, it is referring to the idea that salvation is not anymore coming only through Israel, but to all the world...every type and kind of person. In the Old economy salvation came to Israel, in the New economy it comes to the entire world.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Hmm - are we all agreeing on this one?

I would have thought that at least one 4-pt or 5pt Calvinist would have shown up by now.

in Christ,

Bob

All that has discussed is that man, being higher than the beasts, has an ability to reason between two choices. No one can deny that.

What has not been determined is that man in an unregenerate state has no desire to be saved, and from where does the desire to be saved come from. IE the drowning man doesn't even realize he is drowning yet, at what point does he realize this, and what causes it? That is the root of the argument between God chooses/Man chooses. It is certain that salvation does not come without God drawing us, but going further than that will have to be formulated into one theology or another. Each of these systems of theology want to funnel everything through their glass.

At every wedding I always hear BOTH the bride and the bridegroom say I DO, which means that apparently BOTH had a choice in the matter, the heavenly wedding will be no different. Yet, as a part of that bride I know I personally never could have been brought to say yes, without the wooing of the Groom. At that point I have to attribute it to Him alone doing the adjusting/working on/changing my will so that I would say I DO.....

Not sure about how it worked with the rest of you.

Since I post across the spectrum, to keep me from being keyholed into one particular theology, I ask myself these questions:

If God does not draw souls to Him, why pray for them?
If Man is not obligated to respond, why preach to them?


BGTF

 

[steaver]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Joh 6:44)

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


You have to take the full counsel of God's Word. We cannot pick and choose.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Thanks, steaver!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I already explained the context of "whole world" in my post, it is referring to the idea that salvation is not anymore coming only through Israel, but to all the world...every type and kind of person. In the Old economy salvation came to Israel, in the New economy it comes to the entire world.

Your explaination is like a sieve... it don't hold water when compared with Scripture.

 

[LeBuick]

You are mistaking what it means to be good.
A good act must have as its source faith in God, and as its goal the glory of God. Therefore sinful ungodly man can't do good.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Rom 14:23 - ...For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

I didn't say a Godless man can make a decision pleasing to God. Read what I wrote carefully. I said sin or sin nature does not always win even in a Godless person. There is a measure of good/faith in every man.

This means that even though our free will might be a servant to our nature (your statement, not mine), it does not mean our sinful state or nature is absolutely anti-God or pro-sin. That part of your statement was extreme. There are more non-christians that feed the hungry, visit those who are in jail, etc...(Mt 25:31-46) Are these pro-sin or anti-God acts? Are these the actions of a person who is pro-sin or anti-God?

So it is you who is confusing good with being righteous or saved.

Edited to add, we are not saved by our acts or deeds, we are saved by faith... Our acts and deeds are a product of our faith.

 

[steaver]

Our pastor gave a testimony of a man who he witnessed to many times and this man came to hear him preach several times as well. When the pastor spoke to him one on one the man would admit to him that his heart was pounding and his hands were sweating while he heard the Word. Yet he would not receive Jesus.

Would this not be the Father drawing this man and this man chosing to reject the invite?

Later the man was given a cancer and on his death bed pastor went to him and asked if he would call on Jesus to save him. He replied that he could not do it. He felt that he deserved hell for all that he had done wrong to others and went into eternity that very night. I believed this man had hardened his heart by his own doing and thus at his final hour he could not repent. Rejecting God's call is very risky business. He is longsuffering and may call for a long time, but eventually He will give us our own way.

I believe God draws all men and that all men have a free will choice to make when confronted with Jesus Christ.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Before I lost my sight, in many meetings I would see someone gripping the back of a pew until their knuckles turned white when I would stress the importance of getting one's heart right with God.

One man in particular gripped the back of the pew so hard, you could visibly see him shaking. But he never responded. He was seen many times after that drinking his beer on his front porch.

Always an excuse not to trust Christ. Excuses are a clear sign of free-will.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Our pastor gave a testimony of a man who he witnessed to many times and this man came to hear him preach several times as well. When the pastor spoke to him one on one the man would admit to him that his heart was pounding and his hands were sweating while he heard the Word. Yet he would not receive Jesus.

Would this not be the Father drawing this man and this man chosing to reject the invite?

Later the man was given a cancer and on his death bed pastor went to him and asked if he would call on Jesus to save him. He replied that he could not do it. He felt that he deserved hell for all that he had done wrong to others and went into eternity that very night. I believed this man had hardened his heart by his own doing and thus at his final hour he could not repent. Rejecting God's call is very risky business. He is longsuffering and may call for a long time, but eventually He will give us our own way.

I believe God draws all men and that all men have a free will choice to make when confronted with Jesus Christ.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Sounds like God chose to harden him, a la Rom 9:18.

The unanswered questions in this though are: Why didn't God draw him further? Was God unable to?

Rephrased -"If God doesn't draw someone unto salvation, does that make their will stronger than God's?"

Paul was pretty dead set against Christ, when Christ appeared and changed Paul's heart. Likewise Balaam when spoken to by Christ through his donkey, and yet two different outcomes. This my friends is a mystery that will be debated until Christ returns, with neither side having a bullet-proof argument.


BGTF

Late edit:
Understanding grace is the key:
Grace-The effectual working of God on the heart of man.
Grace-Mercy on the undeserving
Grace-Application of Christ's righteousness to the sinner
Grace-Religious affection
Grace-Favour conferred
Grace-A state of reconciliation to God
and much more...

 

[larryjf]

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


You have to take the full counsel of God's Word. We cannot pick and choose.

God Bless! :thumbs:

I've already explained what the "all men" and "whole world" mean in context to the whole counsel of God...all types and kinds of men.
Are you suggesting that the idea that Christ died for His sheep only and that we can't go to God, but must be drawn is in contradiction to the above verse? I see not contradiction because of the context, but you seem to be saying that they are at odds with each other. If not, i am not sure why you posted this.

 

[larryjf]

I didn't say a Godless man can make a decision pleasing to God. Read what I wrote carefully. I said sin or sin nature does not always win even in a Godless person. There is a measure of good/faith in every man.

This means that even though our free will might be a servant to our nature (your statement, not mine), it does not mean our sinful state or nature is absolutely anti-God or pro-sin. That part of your statement was extreme. There are more non-christians that feed the hungry, visit those who are in jail, etc...(Mt 25:31-46) Are these pro-sin or anti-God acts? Are these the actions of a person who is pro-sin or anti-God?

So it is you who is confusing good with being righteous or saved.

Edited to add, we are not saved by our acts or deeds, we are saved by faith... Our acts and deeds are a product of our faith.

God is the one that says that none do good...

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Psa 53:1-3)

If our acts and deeds are a product of our faith, and those without faith do good works, then what is the difference between our works before and after salvation?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Larry: The Bible says nowhere that we repent before regeneration...if i am mistaken please site a verse.

HP: The first words out of our Lords mouth recorded was to “Repent.” Nothing was mentioned about having to be regenerated . Show us your verse that states the sinner must be regenerated prior to repentance. God calls on men now everywhere to repent. It does not say, wait around until God regenerates you so that you have the abilities to repent, it says repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Larry: We are called to repent and believe, but God must regenerate us first otherwise we are dead in our sins. A dead man can do nothing before he is regenerated.

HP: That is simply not true Larry. Being dead in ones sins does not mean that one cannot do what is right, or that one needs to be regenerated to do that which is right. Being dead in trespasses and sins is to be totally ‘unwilling’ to do what is right or commanded. We see this illustrated in the fact that we as believers are to be dead indeed unto sin. That does NOT mean that we are unable to sin as believers, but rather we are to be totally ‘unwilling’ to sin.

When you make ‘dead’ being unable, you destroy every vestiges of morality. Morality, i.e. responsibility for ones actions, is impossible to conceive of where inability or lack of ability exists.

 

[larryjf]

The idea of free will that some are suggesting is a bit disturbing when realizing how it relates to God's will.
It seems that many think our will is only free if we can do good or evil. Yet God can't do evil, so that would mean that God does not have free will.
God is incapable of evil, yet His will is completely free.
And as unregenerate sinners we are incapable of doing good (as the Bible verse that i posted stated), yet our will is completely free.