Salvation by Works.....or Not?

[larryjf]

HP: The first words out of our Lords mouth recorded was to “Repent.” Nothing was mentioned about having to be regenerated . Show us your verse that states the sinner must be regenerated prior to repentance. God calls on men now everywhere to repent. It does not say, wait around until God regenerates you so that you have the abilities to repent, it says repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

He was preaching the Gospel, which is repent and believe. That does not mean that Jesus did not believe regeneration had to happen.

Here's a verse that shows we must be born again before we can see the kingdom of God, which is needed to truly repent and believe...

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

HP: That is simply not true Larry. Being dead in ones sins does not mean that one cannot do what is right, or that one needs to be regenerated to do that which is right. Being dead in trespasses and sins is to be totally ‘unwilling’ to do what is right or commanded. We see this illustrated in the fact that we as believers are to be dead indeed unto sin. That does NOT mean that we are unable to sin as believers, but rather we are to be totally ‘unwilling’ to sin.

When you make ‘dead’ being unable, you destroy every vestiges of morality. Morality, i.e. responsibility for ones actions, is impossible to conceive of where inability or lack of ability exists.

So you are drawing a distinction between being unwilling and being unable.
Then are you saying that the unregenerate unwillingly do what is good? And if you do what is good unwillingly, can it still be considered a good act?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The idea of Total Inability that some are suggesting is a bit disturbing when realizing that makes life nothing but a game with mankind as nothing more than puppets on a string.
It seems that many think our will is non-existing and we can do only evil.

 

[larryjf]

The idea of Total Inability that some are suggesting is a bit disturbing when realizing that makes life nothing but a game with mankind as nothing more than puppets on a string.
It seems that many think our will is non-existing and we can do only evil.

I believe our will is free and we make free choices...but they are always a servant to our nature.
Just as God is free yet unable to sin. I would hope that you would not suggest that because of His inability to sin that He was not free.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Man, even in his sinful state, has a free will. Why would Jesus throw out a lifeline if He did not want man to be saved from the sea of sin?

HP: You preach real well but the fact is that you do not believe it. Do you not believe that man is a sinner from birth, born in original sin? If man is born in a state that no other possibility exist other than to sin and that continually, choice is a chimera. Choice to do what? Sin and that continually, necessitated by simply being born into the human race? That is no free will at all. Freedom to do as one wills is not freedom to will. That is a mere sophism that has a ring of truth but is in reality void of it.

SFIC: If you say man did not have a free will that God did not want him to grab the lifeline, then it would have been foolish for God to offer it if He did not mean for the man to grab it.

HP: As much as I like the illustration, and indeed there is much truth in it, it is more than likely about as far from what you really believe as anything one could imagine. How is a dead man, unable to do anything other than sin, likened often to a log floating down a stream, going to lay hold of anything? When you make sinful man unable to do anything without first be regenerated by God, enabling him to respond, you have made salvation nothing more than the coerced necessitated results of God arbitrarily allowing some the privilege of salvation why refusing to grant to others dead in their sins the abilities to be freed from their sins. You end up believing total predestination, limited atonement, and irresistible grace in spite of the sound illustration you set forth. It is just as I have witnessed over and over. After preaching one good sermon with illustrations such as the one set forth, we are told in the next sermon that man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation, that nothing man can or will ever do has any effect upon ones final standing before God, and on and on goes the maelstrom of confusion such a Calvinistic system genders.

SFIC: If you say God meant for the man to grab it and the man would not grab it, you have just realized man has a free will. He can accept or reject the gospel.

HP: Here again goes the confusion. Do all men have the ability to lay hold of the life raft, or do some receive the abilities from God necessary for regeneration, the ability to lay hold, while others God simply passes by, damning them to an eternal hell for something they could not avoid and have been withheld the only cure?

I honestly hope that in time you can prove me wrong, and that I have misjudged your beliefs. I will listen very carefully to your responses. I realize that you have posted since the time I wrote this and if in fact there is hard evidence that I am wrong about what I have stated you believe I will apologize and retract it. I do not wish to misrepresent your views in the least.

 

[larryjf]

I am not the one that says none can do good, the Bible says it...

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
(Rom 3:12)

 

[TCGreek]

I believe our will is free and we make free choices...but they are always a servant to our nature.
Just as God is free yet unable to sin. I would hope that you would not suggest that because of His inability to sin that He was not free.

A wonderful thought, I say!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LeBuick: This means that even though our free will might be a servant to our nature (your statement, not mine), it does not mean our sinful state or nature is absolutely anti-God or pro-sin. That part of your statement was extreme. There are more non-christians that feed the hungry, visit those who are in jail, etc...(Mt 25:31-46) Are these pro-sin or anti-God acts? Are these the actions of a person who is pro-sin or anti-God?

HP: I like what you write here, but here is a question I have for you. What makes an action sin or not? Is it necessarily the action itself, or the motive for which it is done? “Though I give my body to be burned….” Morality lies in the intent of the heart, does it not?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

"to whomsoever ye yield your members, his servants ye are'. Man has a choice nto to yield.

Before I got saved, I used to steal candy from a local store. Sometimes I would fight the temptation to steal and would walk out of the store with nothing.

If I was unable to do anything but choose to sin, I would not have fought the temptations even in my sinful nature.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HP: I like what you write here, but here is a question I have for you. What makes an action sin or not? Is it necessarily the action itself, or the motive for which it is done? “Though I give my body to be burned….” Morality lies in the intent of the heart, does it not?

It is the action, not the motive.

if it were the motive, it would be ok to steal to feed someone else but not ok to steal to feed yourself.

Yet God says 'Thou shalt not steal'.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: The idea of Total Inability that some are suggesting is a bit disturbing when realizing that makes life nothing but a game with mankind as nothing more than puppets on a string.

HP: You are right on with this statement. :thumbs: There is only one way to avoid total inability, and that is to reject the Augustinian notion of original sin, and reject the false notion that sin lies ion the physical and not in the will of man. If sin I a contagion, and all men are born sinners, how can you avoid total inability?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: It is the action, not the motive.

if it were the motive, it would be ok to steal to feed someone else but not ok to steal to feed yourself.

Yet God says 'Thou shalt not steal'.

HP: Jesus said if you look upon a women with lust in your heart, you are already judged as if though you have committed adultery. What would it matter if subsequent to the lust it became impossible to commit the act? Would the sin Jesus said existed by motive alone dissipate due to the fact you did not have the opportunity to carry out the act?

I respectfully disagree with you on this important point.

 

[LeBuick]

HP: You preach real well but the fact is that you do not believe it. Do you not believe that man is a sinner from birth, born in original sin? If man is born in a state that no other possibility exist other than to sin and that continually, choice is a chimera. Choice to do what? Sin and that continually, necessitated by simply being born into the human race? That is no free will at all. Freedom to do as one wills is not freedom to will. That is a mere sophism that has a ring of truth but is in reality void of it.

What sin does a new born baby have? Did Jesus not say for such is the kingdom?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: Before I got saved, I used to steal candy from a local store. Sometimes I would fight the temptation to steal and would walk out of the store with nothing.

If I was unable to do anything but choose to sin, I would not have fought the temptations even in my sinful nature.

HP: Another excellent point. :thumbs: The problem with sinners is not that they cannot do differently than they do, it is that they will not.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Le Buick: What sin does a new born baby have? Did Jesus not say for such is the kingdom?

HP: Excellent question. :thumbs: Scripture also says that “where there is no law, sin is not imputed.“ also "to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to HIM it is sin.” Scripture is clear. In order for sin to be predicated, knowledge must exist as well as the ability to understand the intrinsic nature of the commands.

 

[LeBuick]

If our acts and deeds are a product of our faith, and those without faith do good works, then what is the difference between our works before and after salvation?

Motivation... A saved person does good works because they are saved. No one can do enough good works to be saved...

Consider one who is not saved yet feeds the hungry. They have compassion just as a saved person does. Do you believe God can only use the saved to accomplish his will? That would be a pretty limited God if it were so. Yet they still have the choice to be obedient to that compassion or to act contrary. Satan or sin does not always win in the life of non-believers. They are just not part of the kingdom.

 

[LeBuick]

HP: Another excellent point. :thumbs: The problem with sinners is not that they cannot do differently than they do, it is that they will not.

Compare your statement to SFIC testimony, he could have stolen but he didn't.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Amongst all the discussion, we are never to forget:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Cor 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?


BGTF

 

[LeBuick]

HP: Excellent question. :thumbs: Scripture also says that “where there is no law, sin is not imputed.“ also "to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to HIM it is sin.” Scripture is clear. In order for sin to be predicated, knowledge must exist as well as the ability to understand the intrinsic nature of the commands.

Then apply that response to your previous statement...

Do you not believe that man is a sinner from birth, born in original sin? If man is born in a state that no other possibility exist other than to sin and that continually, choice is a chimera. Choice to do what? Sin and that continually, necessitated by simply being born into the human race? That is no free will at all.

 

[larryjf]

Motivation... A saved person does good works because they are saved. No one can do enough good works to be saved...

Consider one who is not saved yet feeds the hungry. They have compassion just as a saved person does. Do you believe God can only use the saved to accomplish his will? That would be a pretty limited God if it were so. Yet they still have the choice to be obedient to that compassion or to act contrary. Satan or sin does not always win in the life of non-believers. They are just not part of the kingdom.

Interesting philosophy.
But the Bible tells us that no one does good (speaking of the unregenerate). How do you get around that in your line of thinking?

I believe that everything is done according to God's will...even the bad things in this world. So yes, i believe that God uses the unregenerate for His purposes, just as He uses the devil...The devil is God's devil.

 

[LeBuick]

HP: I like what you write here, but here is a question I have for you. What makes an action sin or not? Is it necessarily the action itself, or the motive for which it is done? “Though I give my body to be burned….” Morality lies in the intent of the heart, does it not?

Where on the surface I agree with your conclusion, I must also caution not to reason to a point where sin is ok. As SFIC stated, you can steal to feed the hungry but it is still stealing. The law of the land makes room for killing in self defence. The old testament said an eye for an eye. But look at what Jesus said;

Mt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.