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Salvation by Works.....or Not?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
larryjf said:
Lucifer's nature was sinless and pure - he chose rebellion
Gabriel's nature was sinless and pure - he chose obedience.
Adam's nature was sinless and pure -- he chose sin
Job's nature was sinful - he chose obedience.
The list just goes on and on.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
ByGracethroughFaith said:
John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" -- God "draws ALL"
john 16 - the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"
2Peter 3 - "God is not willing for ANY to perish but rather for ALL to come to repentance"
The question is no "does God Draw" the question is -- is this drawing ALONE sufficient to enable choice -- real choice - or is something else needed first -- like regeneration?
in Christ,
Bob
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Point well taken. I was not trying to make the point that sinners never do right as you have so aptly pointed out, but that when they do wrong it is not because they could not do otherwise, but because they refuse to do otherwise. Sorry if I did not make myself clear.
Alex Quackenbush
New Member
To some the comparisons may seem quite simple but their prescriptive weight is significant.BobRyan said:
Gabriel is now confirmed in his righteousness and can sin no more...do you believe that there could be more angels falling?BobRyan said:
Adam and his seed was confirmed in his sin after the fall, therefore without being regenerated there is no one who does good (Rom 3:12).
Job was regenerated and saved.
The Devil and demons were confirmed in their sin and can do no good now.
Yet all of the above still have free will (just as God does, yet can't sin).
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Sacred history shows example of free-will decision after free-will decision. The list proves that the robots do not simply "choose according to nature" for various choices were made by beings with the same nature.
If one wants to imagine that free will is gone now no matter what the Bible shows in history they have the free will to do so.
The warnings of the bible only work in a free-will context.
in Christ,
Bob
If one wants to imagine that free will is gone now no matter what the Bible shows in history they have the free will to do so.
The warnings of the bible only work in a free-will context.
in Christ,
Bob
Let's look at the Bible a bit here and see what it has to say...
Man can't do anything good:
Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Ps 130:3; Ps 143:2; Prov 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; Jn 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; James 3:8; 1 Jn 1:8
Man is unable to believe in God:
Jn 6:44, 65; Jn 8:43-45; Jn 10:26; Jn 12:37-41
Man is unable to understand the truth:
Jn 14:17; 1 Cor 2:14
Man is unable to seek God:
Rom 3:10-11
Man acts freely according to his nature, and that is wholly evil:
Job 14:4; Mat 7:16-18; Mat 12:33; Mk 7:21-23; James 1:13-14
Man can't do anything good:
Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Ps 130:3; Ps 143:2; Prov 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; Jn 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; James 3:8; 1 Jn 1:8
Man is unable to believe in God:
Jn 6:44, 65; Jn 8:43-45; Jn 10:26; Jn 12:37-41
Man is unable to understand the truth:
Jn 14:17; 1 Cor 2:14
Man is unable to seek God:
Rom 3:10-11
Man acts freely according to his nature, and that is wholly evil:
Job 14:4; Mat 7:16-18; Mat 12:33; Mk 7:21-23; James 1:13-14
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Your post brings up an important issue in my mind. There is most definitely an enabling ‘in a sense’ that is brought about by the offering and understanding of the offer of salvation. It was impossible to believe in salvation before it is understood or offered, so we are indeed enabled to make a decision that before we of necessity could not have made. Just the same we do not have to be enabled with any natural ability to be able to accept or reject the offer once made. Am I making any sense to you?
Even the heathen are enabled by God with the abilities requisite of obeying the light they do have according to Romans, IF they will. Their condemnation is for those times that they refused to follow the dictates of their conscience.
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Regeneration is the new birth.BobRyan said:
And i will repost what i posted earlier regarding regeneration coming before repentance and belief...
Here's a verse that shows we must be born again before we can see the kingdom of God, which is needed to truly repent and believe...
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You have it exactly backwards once again. We are not born again so we can repent And believe, we repent and believe so that we can be regenerated, i.e., born again.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
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Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Then why would Paul say that we were made alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses?...
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
As to Acts 3:19, he is preaching the gospel which is repent and believe..it does not mean that he discounts regeneration happening first. Repent and be converted is another way of saying repent and believe.
John also tells us that everyone who believes (present tense) in Christ (those who have faith) has been (past tense) born of God...
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. (1Jo 5:1)
charles_creech78
New Member
I believe there is a travel from nature to grace. He will let you know what you are by nature ( A SINNER) and what you must be by the grace of God. ( BORN AGAIN)1pe 1:23 Being BORN again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.Lu 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; Lu 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins Lu 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, Lu 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. What am I saying God bless the name of the Lord for salvation Is Jesus Christ the son of God If you have jesus you have salvation. Lu 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Lu 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; Lu 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. God bless the name of the Lord amen Lord amen.Lu 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. Lu 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Lu 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Lu 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lu 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: Lu 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation Lu 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; Lu 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. Amen my heart rejoices over thee thank you Lord for Jesus Christ my salvation my hope not only in this life but the life to come.Ac 4:12 Neither is there SALVATION in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Thank you Lord for they salvation. Thank you for first loving me and dieing for me lord . Thank you lord praise his name all ye that love and serve him give him all the glory. Salvation is not of works it is the son of God. Praise his name thank you Lord for they son. Thank you for your love o my heart rejoiceth over thee. Thank you Jesus thank you.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: That is indeed true. What it is not saying is that mans will is not active in the salvation process. It is simply stating that the will of man is not the grounds of salvation. We cannot simply ‘will’ a plan of salvation into effect. God is the sole Author of salvation. The plan of salvation and the possibility of eternal life it genders was not, is not, and will never be, the product of man’s will.