Salvation by Works.....or Not?

[standingfirminChrist]

Shall we cut to the chase? Who put it in Adam's heart to sin?

We know it to be satan that put it into Adam's heart to sin. Of course, Dan V. is trying to blame God.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

A man being spiritually 'dead' means that he hates God and desires to overthrow His throne and kill him (what wasdone to Christ?). He can not love whom he hates, though he exists eternally.

Sincerely,

Dan V.

I was spiritually dead once and never wanted to kill God or take His throne. You are really stretching it there.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: We know it to be satan that put it into Adam's heart to sin. Of course, Dan V. is trying to blame God.

HP: I would say that it was Satan that did the tempting and Adam that did the choosing, and God had nothing to do with his sin.

I believe you are correct concerning Dan V. and his ideas. I would venture to guess that after that he is going to beat on the pulpit and tell us that he is not saying that God is the author of Adam’s sin either…. or will he? We shall see.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: I was spiritually dead once and never wanted to kill God or take His throne. You are really stretching it there.

HP: What is interesting to me is how is one spiritually dead yet according to Dan V. he makes choices all the time, yet there is only one direction he can so-call “choose” and that is to sin.

If there is only one consequent for a given antecedent, choice is impossible. That is shear necessity. Lets see if I can illustrate what Dan is saying.

A man is falling from a building. He tries to decide as he is falling whether or not he desires to proceed in flight back up to the top story from which he fell, or hit the ground. He hits the ground, proving that his choice was as the result proved it to be.

When there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, it is impossible to even conceive of choice.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Good illustration to show the fallacy Dan's logic.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

This is all really very simple. Find the cause and you have found the author. If the outcome is determined before man is even born, the cause cannot lie in man. It must lie in God. One can pound on the pulpit all he desires, claiming that he does not place the authorship of sin upon God, but the facts speak for themselves. If the end is determined before the existence of even the faculties requisite to make the decision, the decision lies at the feet of another cause. The cause can be no other than man’s Creator, God.

When one makes man created in such a state as to eliminate the very possibility of contrary choice, yet still is able ONLY to sin and that continually, choice is a chimera. All intents are bound fast to necessity, and that necessity is determined by some other force than ones own. You can arrive at no other conclusion than God is indeed the author of all sin. Double predestination rules under such a scheme.

Only as man is seen as the first cause of his intents is man rightfully seen as the cause and responsible party for his intents. One simply needs to ask themselves, "Am I to blame for my intents?" If not, all morality has just been extinguished. Praise and blame can only lie with one who is the first cause of those intents. If it is man, blame or praise him. If it is God, all blame or praise rests on Him. There are no alternatives.

When it comes to sin, I say all blame rightfully rests upon the shoulders of sinful man not God. Man must therefore be the first cause of his intents.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

This is all really very simple. Find the cause and you have found the author. If the outcome is determined before man is even born, the cause cannot lie in man. It must lie in God. One can pound on the pulpit all he desires, claiming that he does not place the authorship of sin upon God, but the facts speak for themselves. If the end is determined before the existence of even the faculties requisite to make the decision, the decision lies at the feet of another cause. The cause can be no other than man’s Creator, God.

When one makes man created in such a state as to eliminate the very possibility of contrary choice, yet still is able ONLY to sin and that continually, choice is a chimera. All intents are bound fast to necessity, and that necessity is determined by some other force than ones own. You can arrive at no other conclusion than God is indeed the author of all sin. Double predestination rules under such a scheme.

Only as man is seen as the first cause of his intents is man rightfully seen as the cause and responsible party for his intents. One simply needs to ask themselves, "Am I to blame for my intents?" If not, all morality has just been extinguished. Praise and blame can only lie with one who is the first cause of those intents. If it is man, blame or praise him. If it is God, all blame or praise rests on Him. There are no alternatives.

When it comes to sin, I say all blame rightfully rests upon the shoulders of sinful man not God. Man must therefore be the first cause of his intents.

When God who creates something that is less than Himself, it must lack the one thing that defines God. That thing is perfection. Not having perfection is a quality ascribed to ALL things that are not God. Man not having perfection was subject to fall otherwise he would have been God.

The fall did not surprise God. God foreknew this having created man. In fact the plan of redemption existed before creation, otherwise you have God just "wingin' it" trying to make the best of a bad situation.

If you leave the decision to fall entirely with man, you still point it at God because God created man as less than perfect and able to fall. The question really comes down to why did He do that? That's what the big rift is about.


BGTF

 

[Dan V.]

Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)
In their lost state, they cannot be subject to God's laws, but they indeed are still able to respond to His call. It is their choice to accept or reject.

That verse does not say they are unable to respond to Him, only to His laws. Read the verse carefully. It says nothing close to what you are trying to make it say.

Every sinner rejects God's commands/laws becasue they hate God. God and His word are inseperable. Christ is the 'Word who became flesh'.

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Many are in sin because no one ever told them about God. If no one ever told them about God, how can they hate someone they never even heard of?


You have an arrogant view of sinners.

 

[Dan V.]

Shall we cut to the chase? Who put it in Adam's heart to sin?

The devil tempted Adam and Eve to sin. Though they were created upright and subject to change if they chose to. Because they sinned, all of their natural descendents are born sinners by nature (Romans 5:12).

All of this could have been prevented by God if He chose to. God could have prevented the serpent from entering the garden if He wanted. He was powerful enough. But He didn't. Therefore, the fall of man, together with the redemption of His elect has always been His plan in world history. No man can thwart this.

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

God did not redeem His elect. He redeemed sinful man and man became elect after Salvation.

 

[Dan V.]

Many are in sin because no one ever told them about God. If no one ever told them about God, how can they hate someone they never even heard of?


You have an arrogant view of sinners.

All, not just many are in sin because we are descendents of Adam (Romans 5:12). You really don't understand the nature and depth of sin. To think that you never hated God reveals how much you've minimized sin in your own life. You don't comprehend what Christ has saved you from. Romans 3 addresses all of humanity.

All people know God (Romans 1:17-32) but not in a saving way. Again and again I back up my responses with scripture proofs, and 99% of the time they are ignored.

Curiously no one.... no one has commented on Romans 9. I've mentioned it several times, and it is always ignored. Arminians treat it like a hot potatoe.

Dan V.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Your so-called "Scripture proofs" are not Scripture proof at all in light of the many Scriptures that we have given that refute your stance.

Romans 9-11 was referring to Israel, not all mankind.

As to my not knowing what God saved me from, more of your arrogance is showing. I know what I was saved from. I know God offered to me the same gift of grace that He offers to every man, woman and child on this planet.

It is you who does not understand the depth of God's love. Your arrogance has you blinded to His compassion and love for all mankind.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Since you keep insisting on us addressing Romans 9, I am going to let HL Wilmington explain that chapter:

2. Paul describes the nine-fold advantage of Israel (Rom. 9:4-5)
a. They were Israelites. They were a special nation (Deut. 7:6).
b. They enjoyed the adoption. The entire nation had been
adopted by God (Ex. 4:22; Deut. 14:1; Jer. 31:9).
c. They had the glory. This is a reference to the shekinah cloud
that signified God's presence.
(1) It led them across the wilderness (Ex. 13:21-22; Num.
9:17-22).
(2) It filled the tabernacle during Moses' dedication (Ex. 40:34-
48).
(3) It filled the temple during Solomon's dedication (1 KL 8:10
ID-
(4) It was removed during Ezekiel's time (Ezek. 10:4, 18-19).
d. They had the covenants
(1) The Abrahamic Covenant-promising a mighty nation (Gen.
12:1-3, 7; 13:14-17; 15:5, 18; 17:8).
(2) The Palestinian Covenant-promising a land (Deut. 30:3
(3) The Davidic Covenant-promising an eternal kingdom (2
Sam. 7:12-16; 23:5; 2 Chr. 13:5).


(4) The New Covenant-promising new hearts (Jer. 31:31-34). Note that God gives a solemn promise here that Israel will not cease to be a nation (Jer. 31:3-7).
e. They had the law (Ex. 20; Deut. 5). This is a great light in this
dark world.
f. They had the services of God. It was Israel which ministered in
both the tabernacle and the temple.
g. They had the promises. This includes all of the promises of the
Old Testament.
h. They had the fathers. Israel enjoyed a regenerate ancestry, which included such giants as Abraham, Moses, and David.
i. They produced the line through which Christ came (Mat. 1:1-16; Lk. 3:23-38).
3. Jesus Christ is both man and God (Rom. 9:5).
4. True Israelites are those who approach God by faith and not by the
works of the law (Rom. 9:6-9). Abraham is the father of faith (Rom. 4:9-
13).
5. God can do whatever He pleases (Rom. 9:10-24). We must not
question God's decisions and actions. Whatever He does is right and
good. As one man said, "I believe that a whale swallowed Jonah,
because the Bible says so, and if the Bible said that Jonah swallowed a
whale, I would believe that, too." There is nothing too hard for God and
He never does anything wrong.
Does this mean that God arbitrarily chooses some sinners to be saved and some to be lost?
a. The example of Esau and Jacob is not referring to election
pertaining to personal salvation but to election pertaining to
nations in God's overall plan.
b. Pharaoh first hardened his own heart (Rom. 9:17; Ex. 7:22;
8:15, 19; 9:35). God always desires men to serve Him, but
when they reject Him, He rejects them and judges them.
Compare 2 Thess. 2:11-12.
c. Rom. 9:22-23 does not say that God fits some sinners to
destruction and some to glory. The phrase "vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction" is in the middle voice in Greek and means
to fit oneself.
d. Rom. 9:24 does not mean that God calls only a certain pre-
chosen elect group to salvation. The Calvinist claims that verse
24 refers to "effectual calling," but this is to add to God's Word.
The Bible plainly states that God has called all who will come
to Christ.
(1) God calls through the gospel (2 Thess. 2:14) and the gospel
is to be preached to every creature (Mk. 16:15).
(2) God calls whosoever will (Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17).
(3) God calls every one that believes on Christ (John 6:40).
'
e. God's salvation even of the Jews was not arbitrary but was
based on faith in His Word (Rom. 9:31-32).

 

[Linda64]

Curiously no one.... no one has commented on Romans 9. I've mentioned it several times, and it is always ignored. Arminians treat it like a hot potatoe.

Romans 9 = Israel Past
Romans 10 = Israel Present
Romans 11 = Israel Future

To interpret Romans 9-11 by saying God's covenants and promises to Israel are fulfilled in the church is called "Replacement Theology".

Your comment about Arminians is pretty typical of Calvinists. If one isn't a Calvinist, he/she is an Arminian--which is absolutely incorrect. Romans 9-11 is definitely NOT treated like a "hot potato" for those who interpret those chapters in context, not according to Replacement theology. It's more of a "hot potato" for the one who allegorizes Romans 9-11, as do the Calvinists. (BTW, get yourself a dictionary--there is no "e" in the word "potato").

Thanks for de-railing this thread Dan V.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BGTF: When God who creates something that is less than Himself, it must lack the one thing that defines God. That thing is perfection. Not having perfection is a quality ascribed to ALL things that are not God. Man not having perfection was subject to fall otherwise he would have been God

HP: It would appear to me that you are already in trouble. Only some of the angels have fallen. There is a clear indication that there will be no more that fall. What is your explanation for this reality?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SFIC: how can they hate someone they never even heard of?

HP: Good point. Why did Adam or Eve sin according to Scripture? Was it because they hated God?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DanV: All, not just many are in sin because we are descendents of Adam (Romans 5:12).

HP: Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Scripture does not say we all sin because we are descendents of Adam. If you will read the verse carefully it does tell you implicitly why men are sinners, “because ALL HAVE SINNED.” That is a far cry from what you have purported.

By the way, did I miss your response to my question? I asked you who put it in Adam’s heart to sin?

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

HP: It would appear to me that you are already in trouble. Only some of the angels have fallen. There is a clear indication that there will be no more that fall. What is your explanation for this reality?

Only some have fallen, and yet those who have not fallen have not the perfection of God either. One of them thought he did, but he turned out to be the devil.

What is it that keeps and guarantees the unfallen angels from falling?

Hint: It requires perfection to guarantee it.


BGTF

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BGTF: What is it that keeps and guarantees the unfallen angels from falling?

Hint: It requires perfection to guarantee it.

HP: Oh does it? Does God guarantee that the angels that have not fallen cannot fall if they so chose to? I cannot remember that passage of Scripture. Would you mind posting it for the list?

If God guarantees that some will not fall, and others did, who put it in their hearts to fall? Did God create them to fall? Was their intrinsic nature create differently than those that have not fallen, some created to fall and others not to fall?

Do you have an answer to my other question? Who put it in Adam’s heart to sin?