Salvation/Loss of the soul

Huh? Is this a carryover from another thread?

Joseph Botwinick

 

The statement was made to the effect that we should not focus on particulars.

 

I'm dancing around scripture? You make a statement about people losing their soul and then when I question you about it you say let's don't focus on the particulars. I wouldn't call that a minor point people losing their souls.

Anyway, yes I did use Strong's concordance on whther the word meant eternal. Crosswalk.com calls Strong's Exhaustive Concordance the most complete, easy-to-use, and understandable concordance for studying the original languages of the Bible. Combining the text of the King James Bible with the power of the Greek and Hebrew Lexicons, any student or pastor can gain a clear understanding of the Word to enrich their study.

So, unless you can convince me that you have a stronger background than the writer of Strong's I choose them as the better source. The not talking about New Age. We're talking about eternity.

 

Seriously, are you talking about annihilation of the damned soul rather than eternal punishment? Some people chose to interpret Hell that way. It's not eternal punishment but rather punishment followed by nothingness. Personally, I don't accept that belief.

 

The funny thing about it is that I've read every post that J. Jump has ever made, and he's never made such a statement. In fact, he's stated the exact opposite about an unsaved person.

Yet, for some reason, you keep wanting to come in here and say that he has stated this. Why? What is your motivation to spread an untruth? Why can you not simply confront what has been said, without making up something that is utterly false about what has been said?

You remind me of the false witnesses in Matthew 26 who lied about what Jesus had said, by saying that he had said something that he had not said, by embellishing the truth, to put it politely.

 

What happens to the soul that gets lost?

 

So, is your interpretation from the BDAG Lexicon? If so, please submit the whole analysis so I can benefit from a better source.

 

Lexicon John 3:16

ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life

ουτως adverb
houto hoo'-to: after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
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γαρ conjunction
gar gar: assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles)
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ηγαπησεν verb - aorist active indicative - third person singular
agapao ag-ap-ah'-o: to love (in a social or moral sense) -- (be-)love(-ed).
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ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
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θεος noun - nominative singular masculine
theos theh'-os: a deity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very -- exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).
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τον definite article - accusative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
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κοσμον noun - accusative singular masculine
kosmos kos'-mos: orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally) -- adorning, world.
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ωστε conjunction
hoste hoce'-teh: so too, i.e. thus therefore (in various relations of consecution, as follow) -- (insomuch) as, so that (then), (insomuch) that, therefore, to, wherefore.
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τον definite article - accusative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
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υιον noun - accusative singular masculine
huios hwee-os': a son (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figuratively, kinship -- child, foal, son.
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αυτου personal pronoun - genitive singular masculine
autos ow-tos': the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons
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τον definite article - accusative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
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μονογενη adjective - accusative singular masculine
monogenes mon-og-en-ace': only-born, i.e. sole -- only (begotten, child).
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εδωκεν verb - aorist active indicative - third person singular
didomi did'-o-mee: to give (used in a very wide application, properly, or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection)
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ινα conjunction
hina hin'-ah: in order that (denoting the purpose or the result) -- albeit, because, to the intent (that), lest, so as, (so) that, (for) to.
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πας adjective - nominative singular masculine
pas pas: apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole
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ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
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πιστευων verb - present active passive - nominative singular masculine
pisteuo pist-yoo'-o: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ)
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εις preposition
eis ice: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases
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αυτον personal pronoun - accusative singular masculine
autos ow-tos': the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons
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μη particle - nominative
me may: any but (that), forbear, God forbid, lack, lest, neither, never, no (wise in), none, nor, (can-)not, nothing, that not, un(-taken), without.
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αποληται verb - second aorist middle subjunctive - third person singular
apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee: to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
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αλλ conjunction
alla al-lah': other things, i.e. (adverbially) contrariwise (in many relations) -- and, but (even), howbeit, indeed, nay, nevertheless, no, notwithstanding, save, therefore, yea, yet.
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εχη verb - present active subjunctive - third person singular
echo ekh'-o: (used in certain tenses only) a primary verb; to hold
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ζωην noun - accusative singular feminine
zoe dzo-ay': life -- life(-time).
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αιωνιον adjective - accusative singular feminine
aionios ahee-o'-nee-os: perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

ScriptureText.com

What we've been discussing is the meaning of the last word in the Lexicon, αιωνιον. Here I find it does indeed mean perpetual, eternal, or everlasting.

 

It says "eternal life" which in context is clearly salvation. It's about being born again from above. It's spiritual regeneration.

Every time "eternal life" is spoken of, it's clearly in the context of salvation.

To make eternal life mean anything else is to ignore the plain and clear meaning of the text.

 

Yes.

Guess so. Me and my church and my seminary and my mission board. And the apologetics ministries I work with. Guess we are all wrong. :tongue3:

This word also means "agelong." It means forever. They used this word to mean everlasting, forever, etc.

The passage is not saying my salvation had no starting point, but that I am given the eternal life that God has and is able to grant to those who believe in Christ a part in the eternal life that only comes from Him. When one trusts in Christ, one enters that eternal life of Christ -- we are not eternal in the sense he is, but we enter that eternal life of Christ that he has and is eternal because he is. To have eternal life in Christ is not to mean our nature is eternal in the sense of having no beginning.

Looking at it another way, if God knew eternally that I would be saved, in a sense my salvation is eternal from God's viewpoint.

Do you reject the concept of eternal life in Christ?

 

Of course. But I also believe that we as Christians must continually study the word. Sometimes that requires using commentary, lexicons, etc. But you're the one who pointed out I was using a weak concordance (Strong's). So now you seem to have reversed position and are saying they are of little value.

In any event, I'm sticking with the same interpretation of John 3:16 I've always had. It is talking about eternal salvation.

 

Eternal life is in Christ alone. Those who are in Christ, are partakers of His life. It is His life that had no beginning and no end. So, essentially, when we trusted Christ as our Lord and Savior, we were made partakers of the life that never had a beginning, nor will have an ending.

 

If you want to see this properly formatted, right click and save here: John 3:16 Parsed

JON 3: 16* ___________________________

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of JON 3: 16 T/ord
outos 3778 ---- adv --- -- ------- *in this way 3
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- for 1
agapaw 0025 aor act ind 3s ---verb *loved 3
o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 2
qeos 2316 mas ---- nom s noun--- God 2
o 3588 mas artl acc s ------- the 6
kosmos 2889 mas ---- acc s noun--- world 7
wste 5620 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *so that 8
o 3588 mas artl acc s ------- the 9
uios 5207 mas ---- acc s noun--- *Son 10
o 3588 mas artl acc s ------- the 11
movogevns 3439 mas adj acc s ------- only born 12
didwmi 1325 aor act ind 3s ---verb *He gave 13
iva 2443 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- * in order that 14
pas 3956 mas adj nom s ------- *every one 15
o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 14
pisteuw 4100 pres act nom s mas-Ptc *believing 17
eis 1519 ---- ---- acc -- prep--- *into 18
autos 0846 mas ---- acc s pronoun *Him 19
mn 3361 ---- part --- -- ------- may not 20
apollumi 0622 aor mid sub 3s ---verb *himself perish 21
alla 0235 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- but 22
ecw 2192 pres act sub 3s ---verb *he may esteem 23
zwn 2222 fem ---- acc s noun--- life 24
aiwvios 0166 fem adj acc s ------- agelasting 25

The Greek text and grammar are from:
*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
**Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686