Salvation of the Soul (Page One)

[steaver]

The following study is for anyone wishing to fully understand that there is no such biblical teaching of a seperated two part salvation between spirit and soul. Salvation fully icludes both spirit and soul at the moment of regeneration. Of course if any object, this is the place to challenge any interpretation of scripture that has been referenced for support. Enjoy! ( you will need to read from your bible, i did not print out each scripture reference)

Salvation of the Soul

Objective:
Establish an unshakeable Biblical foundation for the salvation of the soul.
It is a must, that we outline this foundation, upon the precepts of God’s Word. Laying aside the precepts of men.

Read; [Isaiah 28:9-10]

If we forget, ignore, or overlook a precept in the Word of God, our foundation will be faulty, and if the foundation is faulty, the building will also be faulty.

Read; [I Corinthians 3:11] & [Acts 4:12]

Precept #1;
Jesus Christ is the foundation for salvation.

Read; [I Timothy 1:15]

Precept #2;
Christ Jesus came to save sinners.

Read; [1 Corinthians 1:23]

Precept #3;
Christ crucified.

Rabbit trail;
Why is this significant? “we preach Christ crucified”. Every preacher, teacher, Pharisee, or Scribe of the time, up until Paul and the other apostles, preached Christ a King. Christ a conquer of Nations. Not a Christ who dies!
God’s Messiah dieing? This was unheard of. Nobody taught this. Neither Jew nor Gentile. People had been taught that the coming Messiah would deliver the Jewish people out of all oppressions. One who would be King on earth. A King over all Nations. One who could not be defeated, because he would be of God. It is still taught to this day in Judaism. They refuse to recognize Isaiah chapter 53. In fact, they refuse to even read it.
So when Paul and the other apostles preached Christ crucified, they were preaching an unheard of event, It was not taught, even though the Prophet Isaiah foretold how God’s Christ would suffer and offer his life for the people [chp 53].

Side note;
Isaiah also prophesied that a suffering Messiah would not be taught. Read [Isaiah 52:13-15].

Precept #3 is Christ crucified. Why?
Read; [Romans 5:8] -“Christ died for us”
[Romans 5:9] -“justified by His blood”
[Romans 5:11] -“received the atonement”
Precept #4;
Jesus Christ died on a cross, shedding His blood, for an atonement.
Atonement for whom? Sinners [1 Timothy 1:15].
How was the atonement made? Death [Romans 5:8]
Blood [Romans 5:9]

Tripart Nature of Man; body, Soul, spirit.

1) The body has no contributing attributes to one’s salvation. It is part of God’s resurrection plan. It’s salvation, so to speak, is based solely on the destiny of the soul/spirit it belongs to.
2) The spirit has a clear Biblical purpose in God’s salvation plan. While there is absolutely nothing the body can do to bring about salvation, the spirit is God’s line of communication to the soul he created. When we say every man has a spirit, it is the same as saying, every soul has a spirit. It is this spirit that is “spiritually dead”, meaning it is not connected with God’s Holy Spirit, not that it is totally nonfunctional. It was severed when Adam sinned. It is not “one” with God as it was before the Fall. It is still functional, but it is not joined with God. When a soul believes and invites the Spirit of Christ(Holy Spirit) to dwell within it, God quickens(revives to spiritual aliveness) that soul’s spirit. The soul, through it’s spirit, becomes one again with God and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses that soul from all unrighteousness. Hence we become “born again”. [John 3:5-7]. The soul and the spirit become “one” again with God.
To the believer, Paul writes; [Romans 8:15-16] “…ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba, Father.” “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” God works through the spirit which is in man to bring him to faith in Jesus Christ. This faith quickens(makes spiritually alive) mans spirit. Man becomes “born again”. The faith that is in you, by the Spirit united with spirit, is the precept which saves the soul.
3) A soul is the center of God’s salvation plan. It is souls that Jesus Christ came to save, and it is souls which Jesus Christ shed His blood for and died for. A soul is who you are, everything about your consciousness. It is your existence. You are a living soul, a soul which possesses a body and a spirit.

Continued on page two.................

 

[steaver]

Continued from page One............

Now, let’s back it all up with Scripture that can not be misconstrued in any way. Using Scripture that is clear and conclusive. Not Scripture that begs for interpretation.

Read; [Genesis 2:7]- “man becomes a living soul”
[Micah 6:7]- “what shall I give for the sin of my soul”
[Ezekiel 18:4]- “the soul that sinneth, it shall die”
[Leviticus 5:1]- “If a soul sin…”
[Leviticus 5:15]- “If a soul commit a trespass…”
[Leviticus 5:17]- “if a soul sin”
[Leviticus 6:2]- “If a soul sin”

In the book of Leviticus, God refers to man as a soul, 30 times.
Leviticus makes it emphatically clear that it is a soul that sins, and that it is a soul that needs to have an atonement, which includes the shedding of blood and the death of the sacrifice.
Precept #5;
Read; [Leviticus 17:11]- “the blood is the atonement for the soul”

Precept #6;
The soul in connection with pronouns:
[Leviticus 5:1]- “And if a SOUL sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether HE hath seen or known of it; if HE do not utter it, then HE shall bear HIS iniquity”.
[Leviticus 5:2]- “Or if a SOUL touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcass of an unclean beast, or a carcass of unclean cattle, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from HIM; HE also shall be unclean, and guilty.”
[Leviticus 5:3]- “Or if HE touch….”
Do you get the implication here?
The Word of God makes absolutely no distinction between SOUL and the pronoun HE or HIM. Verse 2 God says; “if a SOUL touch”. Verse 3 God says; “if HE touch”.
This is consistent throughout Scripture. There would be no justification, in studying Scripture, for making any separation between pronouns such as he, ye, we, us, himself, thou, you, believer, sinner, etc, etc, etc, and the “living SOUL” that God created.

Back to “The Atonement”; The sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and the shedding of blood.
It is the soul that sins, and thus it is the soul that must pay the wages set forth by God, which is death [Romans 6:23]. That is “spiritual death” cut off from oneness with God, forever. Condemned.
But praise God, there is One who paid that debt for us!
[Isaiah 53:10]
“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his SOUL an offering for sin,”
A SOUL given as ransom [1 Timothy 2:6] for any soul that will put their faith in Jesus Christ’s shed blood, death and resurrection, the “atonement” [Romans3:25]. Praise God!!

Full Circle;

[1 Corinthians 3:11]
“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ”.
The salvation of the soul is secured by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross, for the remissions of our sins [Hebrews 9:22].

[Romans 3:23-26]
“For all (All Souls) have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being JUSTIFIED FREELY by His grace through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION of SINS that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him (That Soul) which believeth in Jesus.” AMEN!


Conclusion:
Jesus’ terrible,( yet precious for us), beating and sacrificial death on a Roman cross was a high price paid for our souls. Out of love for us He forbear it. It was the only way for God to make an atonement for the souls He created. Jesus gave His blood as that atonement and the blood is an atonement for the soul[Lev 17:11] not the spirit. The spirit is our union between our being/soul and God.
[Romans 8:16]- “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we( living souls) are(not will be) the children of God.”

If you should hear the statement; “The soul is not saved at the time of rebirth (born again)”. They are NOT teaching the precepts of God, but of men. Remember these Scriptures, and rebuke them with the Word of God as your defense.
For many teach that only your spirit is saved and your soul has yet to be accounted for. Don’t let them confuse you.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

Don’t let them confuse you.

Because your jumping around all over the place like a Price is Right Plinko chip really helped paint a clear picture

Instead of having to wade through all of "your stuff" folks can just look at three passages (and there are SO many more) that refutes all that you have typed.

James 1:21, Hebrews 10:39 and I Peter 1:9

Unfortuantely there have been a great many that have been confused by the same teaching that you have written here. And unfortunately there will be a great many more that decide to believe church tradition instead of studying the Scripture out for themselves. Sad but true

 

[BobRyan]

Much of what Steaver has typed IS scripture... it is hard to believe that scripture is going to refute scripture.

But I do agree - that a positive vs negative statement needs to be made to see what he is trying to prove and what he is trying to disprove.

 

[steaver]

Because your jumping around all over the place like a Price is Right Plinko chip really helped paint a clear picture

Instead of having to wade through all of "your stuff" folks can just look at three passages (and there are SO many more) that refutes all that you have typed.

James 1:21, Hebrews 10:39 and I Peter 1:9

Let's see, that is three "jumps" in your rebutal (and SO many more). Do as you say not as you do?? :smilewinkgrin:

Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

This does not fefute any scripture that I had refferenced. The Phrase, "able to save your souls", points out the inherent efficacy of the gospel which they have already accepted. The soul is justified by the blood of Christ as has clearly been pointed out in the study.

Hbr 10:39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

"Believing to the saving of the soul" is regeneration. This passage reveals nothing in rebutal of any scripture that I referenced.

1Pe 1:9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Isn't this obvious? It is the hope of all Christians that in the end of our journey of faith that faith will become reality and that we will indeed receive the salvation of our souls.


Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Rom 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


I have presented scripture that clearly states that the blood is the atonement for the soul. If you believe that the blood of the lambs and the blood of Jesus Christ IS NOT the atonement for the soul then you must give another explanation for these passages.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

But I do agree - that a positive vs negative statement needs to be made to see what he is trying to prove and what he is trying to disprove.

Post #2, 8:24pm........

Conclusion:
Jesus’ terrible,( yet precious for us), beating and sacrificial death on a Roman cross was a high price paid for our souls. Out of love for us He forbear it. It was the only way for God to make an atonement for the souls He created. Jesus gave His blood as that atonement and the blood is an atonement for the soul[Lev 17:11] not the spirit. The spirit is our union between our being/soul and God.
[Romans 8:16]- “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we( living souls) are(not will be) the children of God.”

If you should hear the statement; “The soul is not saved at the time of rebirth (born again)”. They are NOT teaching the precepts of God, but of men. Remember these Scriptures, and rebuke them with the Word of God as your defense.
For many teach that only your spirit is saved and your soul has yet to be accounted for. Don’t let them confuse you.

This is not a postive verses negative statement?? :wavey:

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Ok - I agree.

But there is an easy way to do this.

In Genesis 2 we are told that "God breathed into man the spirit (breath) of life and man BECAME a living Soul". So there is a context in scripture where the soul is THE PERSON.

That means that it is the PERSON that is saved not "part of the person".

And in the NT we are told that the body without the spirit is dead - the PERSON is in the state described by John 11 and 1thess 4. (Can't actually say what that is here - because people don't like it much).

So it is the PERSON that is lost and it is the PERSON that must either go to heaven or hell based on accepting or rejecting the Gospel. the PERSON is then saved or not saved.

It is only when we start saying "The PERSON HAS a Soul" that we could even imagine a state where the PERSON goes one place and the SOUL another.

However I would argue that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus we still are talking about the PERSON (soul).

....

Getting back to this idea of "spirit saved and soul lost" however. That means there would be THREE states

1. Soul and Spirit lost
2. Soul lost, spirit saved
3. Soul saved and spirit saved.

But you never see THREE states listed in scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 7 -- only TWO states.

1. "Bad tree" bad fruit, "depart from Me workers of iniquity I NEVER knew you"

2. "Good tree" , Good fruit "Welcome" inherit the Kingdom.

In James 2 only TWO groups

1. Believe like demons -- who know facts but do not obey
2. Believe like saints - living faith that actually works.

In Matt 25 - only TWO groups.

Never in all of scripture are we told that "all jews are saved" yet Christ in speaking to them only shows two groups - saved and lost... not three.

But IF there are truly unsaved people among the Jews then in the 3 state model ALL THREE states would have to have been there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

having said that - "what problem" is this three-state model trying to solve?

Is it trying to get to a point where it can explain why it thinks that "perseverance of the saints" is optional?

Trying to create a "by no-faith-at-all are you saved through grace"?

 

[J. Jump]

I'm not sure that I will participate in this thread that much longer as it is obvious that you already have your mind made up on this matter, and as conversations with Bob continue I am coming to think the same of him, although we have had some good conversations on the matter.

Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

This does not fefute any scripture that I had refferenced. The Phrase, "able to save your souls", points out the inherent efficacy of the gospel which they have already accepted. The soul is justified by the blood of Christ as has clearly been pointed out in the study.

Steaver I would enourage you to go back and re-read the Scripture. You say this is talking about something they already received, but the problem is the text is not a past tense text. He is telling to do something in the present. They are to currently lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive (current) the word which is able to save their souls.

Their souls were not saved at that time. Their souls were not saved in a past time as you suggest. Again we have to let the text say what it says. We can't add past tense endings to words that aren't there.

This is a present tense conversation. That text alone is enough to disprove your two-page diatribe.

Hbr 10:39

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

"Believing to the saving of the soul" is regeneration. This passage reveals nothing in rebutal of any scripture that I referenced.

Again a simple reading of the tense of this Scripture would show again that this is not a past tense in that something happened and as a result something else happened.

1Pe 1:9

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Isn't this obvious?

I tend to think so, but there are a lot of folks that seem to miss it for some reason.

It is the hope of all Christians that in the end of our journey of faith that faith will become reality and that we will indeed receive the salvation of our souls.

I'm confused Steaver. First you say our souls are saved at the moment we believe in the shed blood of Christ. Then here you agree with me that the soul is not in fact saved, but will be saved in the future.

So are you trying to say that ones eternal salvation is just a hope and not a reality?

 

[steaver]

I'm confused Steaver. First you say our souls are saved at the moment we believe in the shed blood of Christ. Then here you agree with me that the soul is not in fact saved, but will be saved in the future.

I never agreed with any "fact" that the soul is not yet saved.

I said...."that faith will become reality".

I know I (a living soul) am saved because the Word of God tells me so. I will not FULLY experience this until I see Jesus face to face in my ressurrected glorified body.

Now you TOTALLY ignored these scriptures and comments...

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Rom 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


I have presented scripture that clearly states that the blood is the atonement for the soul. If you believe that the blood of the lambs and the blood of Jesus Christ IS NOT the atonement for the soul then you must give another explanation for these passages.

Can you please explain??

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[J. Jump]

I never agreed with any "fact" that the soul is not yet saved.

Funny cause that's what your statement said.

It is the hope of all Christians that in the end of our journey of faith that faith will become reality and that we will indeed receive the salvation of our souls.

Steaver that is a future tense, in that it hasn't happened yet. So either our souls are saved or we will receive the salvation of our souls. It isn't both it's one or the other.

I know I (a living soul) am saved because the Word of God tells me so.

Just because you are a living soul does not mean that is what is saved when a person is saved by grace through faith apart from works.

The bottom line is there is just zero evidence that says the soul is already saved. The reason being is I just gave you three verses that would contradict any "proof" text that one could come up with. The reality is that the salvation of the soul is something that will take place in the future if we meet the conditions that are laid out in Scripture.

Can you please explain??

Steaver it doesn't matter if I could. Your mind is already made up, and you aren't going to believe anyway. I have already provided you with ample evidence that the soul is not saved at the moment of by grace through faith apart from works and you don't believe that so why do you want me to continue to explain things to you that you aren't going to believe anyway.

That's what I don't understand about people like you (and there are several on this board). You already have your mind made up in regard to something, but you want to engage in meaningless debate when you know you aren't going to change your views anyway.

If we can't even get off the first step in agreement there is no need in going on to step two.

 

[DQuixote]

Somebody in this "discussion" define terminology, please.

1. person =
2. mind =
3. human nature =
4. soul =
5. spirit (small s) =

Please, no 3,000 word dissertations. Short & sweet.

 

[BobRyan]

Somebody in this "discussion" define terminology, please.

1. person = soul in Gen 2 "Man BECAME a living being (soul)"
2. mind = heart and sometimes soul sometimes spirit as in 1Cor 2.
3. human nature = sinful
4. soul = usually PERSON
5. spirit (small s) = Person HAS a spirit that is the ESSENCe and LIFe force of the person that goes back to God at death. Eccl 12.

 

[steaver]

Steaver it doesn't matter if I could. Your mind is already made up, and you aren't going to believe anyway. I have already provided you with ample evidence that the soul is not saved at the moment of by grace through faith apart from works and you don't believe that so why do you want me to continue to explain things to you that you aren't going to believe anyway.QUOTE]

You do understand this is a "debate forum"?? Both sides are more likely to be concreted in their beliefs than not. When you provide an explanation for the scriptures I have posted, that clearly teach that the soul is atoned for by the blood of Christ, then you may have begun to give "ample evidence". It appears that you just simply will not because you cannot.

It matters not if you think I will not believe you anyways. This is a debate forum and it is for doctrine to be debated and for the audience to hear both side's answers to difficult questions. Why are you here?

That's what I don't understand about people like you (and there are several on this board). You already have your mind made up in regard to something, but you want to engage in meaningless debate when you know you aren't going to change your views anyway.

Willingness to change one's mind is not a requirment for debate. Debate is about expressing your views and putting forth your evidence for the audience to consider. You are failing so far and this will only defeat your position by default.

Steaver that is a future tense, in that it hasn't happened yet. So either our souls are saved or we will receive the salvation of our souls. It isn't both it's one or the other.

We can debate this point if you please. I see you have chosen to debate this point even though I will not change my mind on it, but you will not debate the scriptures about blood and atonement because I will not change my mind on it. Do you see any inconsistency in your beliefs here? Do you just pick and choose what feels comfortable to debate?

As far as saved goes let me be clear. I am a living soul. I (soul) was saved back when I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I (soul) is saved right now as I speak. And I (soul) will be saved in the future when I leave this alien world. Now scripture expresses this past, present and future salvation as an event (regeneration), a perserverance (kept by Jesus Christ), and a finished product (glorification). I (soul) am saved, I am being sanctified, and I will be presented holy and unblameable before God through the shed blood and atonement by Jesus Christ.

Now we can go into this topic further, maybe begin a new thread on it. But you still need to give an explanation for the following scripture and comments that deal with the OP.....

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Rom 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


I have presented scripture that clearly states that the blood is the atonement for the soul. If you believe that the blood of the lambs and the blood of Jesus Christ IS NOT the atonement for the soul then you must give another explanation for these passages.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

The bottom line is there is just zero evidence that says the soul is already saved. The reason being is I just gave you three verses that would contradict any "proof" text that one could come up with. The reality is that the salvation of the soul is something that will take place in the future if we meet the conditions that are laid out in Scripture.

Here is some "zero" evidence......

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Rom 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


I have presented scripture that clearly states that the blood is the atonement for the soul. If you believe that the blood of the lambs and the blood of Jesus Christ IS NOT the atonement for the soul then you must give another explanation for these passages.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

You do understand this is a "debate forum"??

I do. And I believe debate is a great thing as long as both parties are willing to learn. That means that you have to be vulnerable and say I believe what I believe, but if someone can prove me wrong I will be big enough to accept it.

You have your mind set and aren't here to learn, but to prove something to be wrong. So in my mind that isn't debate that is more along the lines of teaching. You have set yourself in a position that you are not a learner, but a teacher of all of us that are holding to what you perceive is incorrect doctrine. To me discussing matters like this with folks like you is a waste of time after the initial step.

It appears that you just simply will not because you cannot.

See this is one of the reason I don't waste my time, because we can already see the childishness coming out. I mean what a lame line. Just because I don't want to waste my time explaining something to you that you aren't going to believe anyway doesn't equate I can not. It equates to I will not.

Willingness to change one's mind is not a requirment for debate. Debate is about expressing your views and putting forth your evidence for the audience to consider. You are failing so far and this will only defeat your position by default.

More childish "if you don't play my game by my rules I win by default" nonsense. I have explained my stance on "debate."

This is a debate forum and it is for doctrine to be debated and for the audience to hear both side's answers to difficult questions. Why are you here?

Well I first came here for the same reasons you have stated, but I have found that these types of "debates" that you want to engage in more often than not lead to some very non-Christian behavior. We can already see some of the childishness rearing its ugly head, and I don't think that is a good thing.

So I am here to observe those that are truly searching for Truth, and trying to help them in a one-on-one manner. I have started posting more than I have intended as of late.

We can debate this point if you please.

No we can not. There is nothing to debate. You either believe what you typed or you mis-typed. It's as simple as that. What you typed is a future salvation of the soul. So either you meant that or you didn't. So you can say I believe that our souls are already saved and I just mis-typed or you can say yes I don't believe our souls are saved, but will be in the future. Your words are what they are.

I see you have chosen to debate this point even though I will not change my mind on it, but you will not debate the scriptures about blood and atonement because I will not change my mind on it. Do you see any inconsistency in your beliefs here? Do you just pick and choose what feels comfortable to debate?

See just more examples of childisness that I don't think is even necessary, and is why I don't want to "debate" you on these matters, because it will only get worse from here.

As far as saved goes let me be clear. I am a living soul. I (soul) was saved back when I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I (soul) is saved right now as I speak. And I (soul) will be saved in the future when I leave this alien world. Now scripture expresses this past, present and future salvation as an event (regeneration), a perserverance (kept by Jesus Christ), and a finished product (glorification). I (soul) am saved, I am being sanctified, and I will be presented holy and unblameable before God through the shed blood and atonement by Jesus Christ.

Sounds like you mis-typed then

But you still need to give an explanation for the following scripture and comments that deal with the OP.....

No I don't. Like I said I have already given more than enough evidence that proves what you are saying is incorrect. If you won't even believe those three verses you aren't going to believe what is said about the others. But again I just don't understand why folks like you demand answers that you don't want anyway.

I have presented scripture that clearly states that the blood is the atonement for the soul.

Yes you have. But what you haven't done and can't do is prove that the soul is saved by grace through faith apart from works. That you have not done. And that is my point. I fully agree that the blood of Jesus is necessary for the salvation of the soul. Where we disagree is the timing, and you have not proved your point on that, and neither do these verses prove your point. What they do prove is that blood is necessary in the salvation of the soul.

 

[steaver]

Quote: Steaver
I have presented scripture that clearly states that the blood is the atonement for the soul.

Jump...Yes you have.

Finally! You could have saved a lot of time and space if you would have just answered the first time. :thumbs:

But what you haven't done and can't do is prove that the soul is saved by grace through faith apart from works. That you have not done. And that is my point. I fully agree that the blood of Jesus is necessary for the salvation of the soul. Where we disagree is the timing, and you have not proved your point on that, and neither do these verses prove your point. What they do prove is that blood is necessary in the salvation of the soul.

Then you did not take the time to actually do the study. I have walked you through the study precept by precept, here a little and there a little.

The scripture declares "being NOW justified by his blood".

Now does not mean future!

You agreed that it is the blood which justifies the soul and the scripture declares that it is already a done deal because of your faith in Christ...

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Ro 5:1-2)

He goes on.....

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Ro 5:9)

This is all stated in the same passage Romans 5. There is the proof you say I have not presented that the soul is saved by grace through faith apart from works. Did you see works spoken of in this passage?

How can you possibly say that I have not proved this with scripture?

How does works then justify that living soul which has already been declared justified by the blood of Jesus? That is double justification which is never taught in scripture. Is it not ALL Jesus' shed blood and NONE of our filthy works?

God Bless!:wavey:

 

[J. Jump]

Brother you make the same mistake that many Christians make in that just because you see a word used in one place that it must mean the same thing in the other. I agree with all the Scripture that you laid out. What I don't agree with is the conclusions that you have drawn. You have compared Scripture with Scripture, but as I am trying to get BobRyan to see in a different thread sometimes folks compare the wrong Scripture with wrong Scripture and come out with wrong conclusions and that is exactly what you have done by drawing the conclusion that the soul is saved.

And I can say that because I have given you three of many Scriptures that say our souls are in fact not saved at this time that they are in the process of being saved if we are allowing the Holy Spirit to sanctify us. The salvation of the soul is not an automatic.

How can you possibly say that I have not proved this with scripture?

Because again I have already given you three verses that contradict what you say. So therefore your understanding is flawed IMHO because the clear reading of these three passages teaches directly against what you are saying.

In conclusion you are more than welcome to continue to believe that way if you want to, but until you can show me how the soul is already saved yet show how James 1:21 is in the future tense, but really doesn't mean that I'm going to keep believing the way I do, because IMHO it is the only way Scripture can flow together instead of being pitted against itself.

But if you can show how the future tense really doesn't mean in the future then I am all ears.

 

[steaver]

sometimes folks compare the wrong Scripture with wrong Scripture and come out with wrong conclusions and that is exactly what you have done by drawing the conclusion that the soul is saved.

The only conclusion I can make concerning your responses to what I have put forth is that you just simply have dug in your heels and refuse to take the time to study the assertations of Romans 5. The scriptures I have presented are the scriptures that totally debunk the "interpretations" that you hold of those three passages that you gave in defense of your position.

Here are the words that debunk your position...

justified......atonement

If you do not understand the definition of these two words then nothing will convince you that you are wrong.

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Rom 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

justified...atonement...equals SAVED!

If your soul is atoned for then you are saved!

If your soul is justified then you are saved!

As a bible student, how can you posssibly not understand these terms?

And I can say that because I have given you three of many Scriptures that say our souls are in fact not saved at this time that they are in the process of being saved if we are allowing the Holy Spirit to sanctify us. The salvation of the soul is not an automatic.

Scripture cannot contradict scripture. If this were true then Romans 5 is a lie.

Because again I have already given you three verses that contradict what you say. So therefore your understanding is flawed IMHO because the clear reading of these three passages teaches directly against what you are saying.

Romans 5 is emphatically clear concerning the salvation of the soul yet you are the one choosing to contradict Romans 5 with other scriptures that are not as crystal clear as Romans 5. Justified and atonement cannot be misconstrued in any way.

In conclusion you are more than welcome to continue to believe that way if you want to, but until you can show me how the soul is already saved yet show how James 1:21 is in the future tense, but really doesn't mean that I'm going to keep believing the way I do, because IMHO it is the only way Scripture can flow together instead of being pitted against itself.

But if you can show how the future tense really doesn't mean in the future then I am all ears.

Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

This is what you cling to that you believe debunks the teaching of justified and atonement spoken of in Romans 5? It seems that your argument is with the word of God rather than with me. I pointed you towards scripture that is very decisive. This scripture in James begs for some interpretation and interpretation should be done by comparing scripture with scripture. So if one compares James with Romans 5, for one, one would clearly rule out the notion that the soul has not yet been saved or that the soul needs some works to be saved. Therefore one must dig deeper into just what it is the author is teaching here because on the surface with a casual reading one could very well come away with a faulty belief.

Romans 5 cancels out the thought that the soul is not yet saved. So then what can it mean? We know that salvation is eternal, this means past, present and future. I was saved, I am being saved and I will be saved in the future. That is what "eternal" means. Even after 10,000 years I will be rightly saying that I have been saved, I am being saved and I will always be saved.

Again we can say, I was made alive in Christ, I am alive in Christ, I will always be alive in Christ. This I can say because Christ is Eternal (past present future). Therefore I in Him is the same.

...."and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls".

Of course it is able to save my soul. Knowing the scriptures of how the soul is atoned for and declared justified I can read this and see that it isn't that controversal at all. The word has been engrafted, this means he is talking to a saved soul. Why say it is able to save your soul if your soul is already saved? Simple, The engrafted word has saved your soul, the engrafted word is saving your soul, and the engrafted word is able to save your souls.

One should not base a doctrine on a few passages of scripture that on the surface seem to contradict the clearest teachings of many other scriptures. Romans 5 does not beg for deep interpretations, it only requires one to accept the clear definitions of the terms it speaks. The terms justified and atonement cannot be misunderstood but can be ignored.

So the short answer is that it does denote future tense about salvation of the soul! However this does not support your position that the soul is not yet saved for a believer. You are failing to consult the full counsel of God's Word on the matter.

God Bless!