Salvation of the Soul (Page One)

[Faith alone]

Can anybody who believes the doctrine of outer darkness for the believer tell me how many works I need to stay out of there?

God Bless!

Well, I'd say we need to keep from being classified as those not ready for the Lord when he returns. I'd also say that parables are stories, illustrations for a purpose. It's best to look for the main teaching intended by our Lord, and not try to take the illustration beyond that theme.

FA

 

[Faith alone]

If God wants me as a believer to avoid outer darkness would He not give me a bench mark to meet?

I would think that God would. Surely God does not want me to spend a thousand years in torment. Is it 10 works, 100, what if I take a day off and die without working that day, what if I haven't worked for two years but I did work for ten years prior? How many works do I need to stay out of that place? Somebody help me understand!

It's kinda comical that my brother and his pastor believe and teach this doctrine of outer darkness yet they don't seem to concerned about it. My brother hasn't participated in church for years and his pastor got a divorce and remarried his first wife that he divorced years prior. He hasn't worked for the Lord in years either. I guess outer darkness isn't that important to them. Or maybe they feel they already have enough works under their belts to avoid it.

God Bless!

Most who hold to outer darkness referring to believers do not say that such believers will not be in the 1000 yr. millennial kingdom. They just will miss out on some rewards and in hearing "well done." Such a position is pretty extreme.

FA

 

[J. Jump]

Here is what the man wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....."which is able to save your souls."

Here is what Jump writes........ "the soul has yet to be saved".

I wonder why the Holy Spirit just didn't say "for your souls have yet to be saved" .

Steaver I am sure you are a high school graduate, and as such I'm pretty sure you were required to take four years of English. One would think that following four years of English in high school that you would be able to understand the simple English phrase which is able to save your souls as something that has yet to happen.

I tell you what go down to the local high school and find the English teachers and ask them if able to save your soul can in any way mean your soul is already saved.

Now in the same approach you have taken I can take with you. Here goes:

Here is what the man wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....."which is able to save your souls."

Here is what Steaver writes............"which has already saved your souls."

I wonder why the Holy Spirit just didn't say "for your souls which have already been saved."

Now did that accomplish anything? So again you can write all the silly nonsensical statements you want to, but the bottom line is the text says what the text says and it says able to save your souls. The English language simple will not allow for your rendering, because it is not past action, but future action that has not already occured.

 

[J. Jump]

Can anybody who believes the doctrine of outer darkness for the believer tell me how many works I need to stay out of there?

Yes, the Bible says we are to have a lifetime of obedience, faithfulness and overcoming.

If God wants me as a believer to avoid outer darkness would He not give me a bench mark to meet?

God does want you to avoid outer darkness. And He has given you everything you need.

I would think that God would. Surely God does not want me to spend a thousand years in torment. Is it 10 works, 100, what if I take a day off and die without working that day, what if I haven't worked for two years but I did work for ten years prior? How many works do I need to stay out of that place? Somebody help me understand!

Again it's a lifetime of faithfulness, obedience and overcoming.

It's kinda comical that my brother and his pastor believe and teach this doctrine of outer darkness yet they don't seem to concerned about it. My brother hasn't participated in church for years and his pastor got a divorce and remarried his first wife that he divorced years prior. He hasn't worked for the Lord in years either. I guess outer darkness isn't that important to them. Or maybe they feel they already have enough works under their belts to avoid it.

Can't really comment on this section as I don't know your brother or pastor. But works isn't just about how many little ole ladies you help across the street.

There are many folks that are "doing" what they consider to be works of righteousness, but when they stand before the Judge they will find out that it was really works of wood, hay and stubble. We are to be about God's will for "our" life. And His will for "my" life I am sure is different than His will for "your" life.

So I am to be faithful to the calling He has given me for a lifetime and you are to be faithful to the calling He has given you for a lifetime.

And people who understand the gospel of the kingdom are more worried about looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of faith more so than looking backwards at where the line is that one can walk and be okay.

If we are keeping our eyes on the prize and our attention focused on Jesus then we can be sure that we will hear well done thou good and faithful servant. But it is when we take our eyes off the Lord that we start to sink!

 

[J. Jump]

Most who hold to outer darkness referring to believers do not say that such believers will not be in the 1000 yr. millennial kingdom. They just will miss out on some rewards and in hearing "well done."

Unfortunately there are some of those that stop short of the full teaching of the gospel of the kingdom. I know that Charles Stanley and Tony Evans both teach that outer darkness is for believers, and if I remember correctly they both hold to something similar to what FA has said.

I know there are a couple in the Free Grace Evangelical Society that believe that way including a former pastor of a church that we attended.

 

[DQuixote]

I guess you people think that sense you can't defend or debunk with Scripture if you throw around the words heretic or heretical or cult or pugatory and the like that you will simply scare people away from studying the matter out on their own.

Actually, I personally hope that we will simply scare people away from your bogus doctrine. Watchman Nee loved it, and so did Hagin, Sr. Those of us who rightly divide the word of truth want to warn others!

We'll pray for you to see the light. :1_grouphug: <---- Group Prayer.

 

[J. Jump]

I personally hope that we will simply scare people away from your bogus doctrine.

Well I have to give it to you at least you will admit. So everyone that is reading now has proof in the pudding that the doctrine can't be debunked so they are just scaring people away hoping that will stay away instead of learning the Truth.

Scripture doesn't speak kindly to those that lead others away from the Truth. Instead of trying to scare people away with absurdities why don't you disprove the idea with Scripture since you think you have it correct. It shouldn't be that difficult.

Watchman Nee loved it,

Yes he had some aspects of it right, but I think he was way off in some areas as well.

Hagin, Sr.

Not sure who this is. Could you give a full name so I can check him out please.

We'll pray for you to see the light.

I've already seen the Light in regard to the salvation of the soul, however I still have much to learn so your prayers are appreciated!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....Now in the same approach you have taken I can take with you. Here goes:

Here is what the man wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....."which is able to save your souls."

Here is what Steaver writes............"which has already saved your souls."

This is not true. I stick with "...the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls". This is what it says and this is a statement of fact. The engrafted word is able to save your soul. It has, it is, and it is able to save to the uttermost. It is a simple statement of truth. It is sad that such a simple statement confuses some Christians.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Quote: (steaver)
Can anybody who believes the doctrine of outer darkness for the believer tell me how many works I need to stay out of there?

(Jump)....Yes, the Bible says we are to have a lifetime of obedience, faithfulness and overcoming.

I guess you won't avoid it either then. Unless you have been perfectly obedient and faithful in your lifetime so far.

(Jump)...There are many folks that are "doing" what they consider to be works of righteousness, but when they stand before the Judge they will find out that it was really works of wood, hay and stubble.

How do you know that your works are not wood, hay and stubble?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Faith Alone)...And Paul used Abraham as an example to demonstrate that we are saved by faith "apart from works." Sounds very clear to me, no works, nada, zip, nix:

Romans 4:1-7 What then can we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? If Abraham was justified by works, then he has something to brag about--but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness. Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares righteous the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness. Likewise, David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: How happy those whose lawless acts are forgiven and whose sins are covered!

I agree with this. I am not sure how this applys to our discussion about James. We can see as you posted that the scriptures declare a living soul saved by grace apart from works. So how does James confuse you on this? Or maybe it doesn't and we are just not on the same page of thought.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Faith Alone)...And regarding the other scripture...

2 Corinthians 13:5-7Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves. Or do you not recognize for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless you fail the test. And I hope you will recognize that we are not failing the test.

Now we pray to God that you do nothing wrong, not that we may appear to pass the test, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear to fail.

Paul is not asking people to examine themselves to see if they are still saved. He asks them to examine themselves to see if they are "in the faith" and that Christ is in them.

BTW, I believe this is not talking about being born again, but growing in Christ. Are we becoming more like Christ? After all, Paul and his colaborers certainly were saved. But... Is he being formed in us? Are we being changed into His image "from one degree of glory to another?"

You are right that Paul is not asking them to examine themselves to see if they are "still" saved. Paul is asking them to examine themselves to see if they "are" saved. If Christ is not in you, you are not saved, but reprobate.

Reprobates are not saved. These are hopelessly sinful-depraved. They have not the Spirit of Christ and cannot descern the ways of God.

You can believe if you want that Paul is not saying what he is saying, however that would be denying the actual reading of the text.

God Bless!

 

[Faith alone]

I agree with this. I am not sure how this applys to our discussion about James. We can see as you posted that the scriptures declare a living soul saved by grace apart from works. So how does James confuse you on this? Or maybe it doesn't and we are just not on the same page of thought.

God Bless!

steaver,

So... if we agree then I'm not confused by James. Otherwise, I must be confused?

Perhaps we agree regarding faith alone, but not on the meaning of "salvation of the soul" as used in James. I have spent much detailed time studying James and considering the language and context. I may be wrong, but I am not actually "confused" in my position in James. :thumbs:

FA

 

[steaver]

(Faith Alone)....That does not logically follow. Dead faith is one that is real... it's just not active, useful. When you see a dead body, do you say that it does not exist, or simply that it is no longer alive? And in vs. 20 James said, "Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless?" Not nonexistent... useless.

You are right. What I meant by "NO" faith is no saving faith in Christ. Faith, unless it is faith in Jesus Christ marked as genuine by producing works, is dead or useless to save. It is only an empty profession. A "said" faith. No regeneration has occured.

God bless!

 

[Faith alone]

You are right that Paul is not asking them to examine themselves to see if they are "still" saved. Paul is asking them to examine themselves to see if they "are" saved. If Christ is not in you, you are not saved, but reprobate.

Reprobates are not saved. These are hopelessly sinful-depraved. They have not the Spirit of Christ and cannot descern the ways of God.

You can believe if you want that Paul is not saying what he is saying, however that would be denying the actual reading of the text.

God Bless!

The word translated as "reprobate" by the KJV is simply referring to poor judgment. Now if this"poor judgment" means that they refuse to trust in Christ, then I agree that they're not saved. But in most places in the NT that term is used to refer to believers as much as unbelievers. Believers can exercise very poor judgment - trust me, I have.

People are saved by trusting in Christ - period... not by exercising good judgment.

FA

 

[Faith alone]

You are right. What I meant by "NO" faith is no saving faith in Christ. Faith, unless it is faith in Jesus Christ marked as genuine by producing works, is dead or useless to save. It is only an empty profession. A "said" faith. No regeneration has occured.

God bless!

Steaver,

Gotta say I really appreciate seeing the "God bless!" at the end of ea. of your posts!

Now, what you have expressed is how most people view James 2. But I do not.

James is not talking about a problem with the faith - but a problem with the works. IOW, I do not see James having a problem with the faith... but with the failure to follow it up with works. And again, I do not see this as salvation-from-hell faith, but growing-in-Christ faith. James refers to them as brothers - they're saved. They've already come to believe in Christ. They're already children of God, which is why he calls them "brothers."

So I'm gonna hazard a guess that we don't quite agree here.

Getting late here... gotta call it a night, steaver.

Take care,

FA

 

[steaver]

(Faith Alone)...The word translated as"reporbate" by the KJV is simply referring to poor judgment. Now ifthis"poor judgment" mean s that they refuse to trust in Christ, then I agree that they re not saved. But in most places in the NT that term is used to refer to believers as much as unbelievers.

I believe you should take another look into the term "reprobate". It is not simply "poor judgment" in any of the dictionaries or concordances I have referenced. Secondly, nowhere is this word used for believers that I can find. It is always reserved for the unsaved.

God Bless!

 

[Faith alone]

I believe you should take another look into the term "reprobate". It is not simply "poor judgment" in any of the dictionaries or concordances I have referenced. Secondly, nowhere is this word used for believers that I can find. It is always reserved for the unsaved.

God Bless!

Guess I'm not quite gone yet. I'm reall yrushingthis, but unless I'm remembering wrong there, the Greek word is ADOKIMOS - which basically means "disqualified" - when tied into the mind as in 2 Tim. 3:8 "poor judgment" works. But it is never used of unbelievers. To be disqualified refers to not receiving crowns and rewards reserved for us at the judgment(BEMA) seat of Christ.

FA

 

[steaver]

(Faith Alone)....James refers to them as brothers - they're saved. They've already come to believe in Christ. They're already children of God, which is why he calls them "brothers."

James is speaking to believers. Most NT letters are addressed to believers but not all in every church are saved. James states "if a man say". James is teaching the church to examine themselves just as Paul had taught as well.

If we would declare that every man James is speaking to is a genuine believer then we must declare the same throughout all the scriptures that address the church such as the following;

Paul opens his letter to the Roman Christians....

Rom 1:7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul, still speaking to "believers", states....

Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Now answer this question. If Paul is speaking only to all genuine believers, then why is Paul saying that any believer that has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His? How can a believer not have the Spirit of Christ?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Guess I'm not quite gone yet. I'm reall yrushingthis, but unless I'm remembering wrong there, the Greek word is ADOKIMOS - which basically means "disqualified" - when tied into the mind as in 2 Tim. 3:8 "poor judgment" works. But it is never used of unbelievers. To be disqualified refers to not receiving crowns and rewards reserved for us at the judgment(BEMA) seat of Christ.

FA

Not sure what you are saying, but 2 Tim 3:8 is definitely not speaking about believers having poor judgment. It is speaking about the unsaved.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

This is not true. I stick with "...the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls". This is what it says and this is a statement of fact. The engrafted word is able to save your soul. It has, it is, and it is able to save to the uttermost. It is a simple statement of truth. It is sad that such a simple statement confuses some Christians.

You are right it is very sad and you are about as confused as they come. The text says IS ABLE TO. It DOES NOT say "it has, it is and it is able" as you presume. Seriously . . . IT SAYS IS ABLE TO - THAT'S IT.