Salvation of the Soul (Page One)

[steaver]

(Jim)....You first statement demonstrates where your confusion lies. No, the soul cannot be damned. Not in the sense that I think you mean it to be. When most folks say "damned" they usually use the word in the context of eternity in hell. We are not advocating such a thing. We advocate eternal security of the believer.

Secondly; your next assumption is that one's spirit goes to heaven but your soul is damned. Again, this demonstrates your misunderstandig. What I am sensing here is that you are trying to mix the current common understanding of death, hell, the grave, and heaven with Accountability Doctrine. Let's not mix things up shall we? This would be like mixing sprinkling with immersion. All you get is confusion.

This is where I got the idea that Jim believes the soul cannot be lost. Let's not play with words. When one speaks of "saved" one is speaking about entering heaven. When one is speaking about "lost" one is speaking about entering hell.

Now so we do not get confused with each other let's aways elaborate with details if when saying lost or saved one does not mean heaven and hell in your postings.

I will wait for Jim to clarify before repeating that he said something he did not.

I will ask again with clarification, can the soul of a believer be lost at the judgment? By lost I mean end up in hell after the judgment.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....Scripture says those that suffer will reign, but Steaver says no need to suffer as you can have all this world has to offer and still rule and reign.

How do you suffer Jump? Deny yourself a song that makes you smile? Do you eat salt or sugar? Nee says to deny yourself ANYTHING that brings you joy! But Nee is a bit crazy right? Even though he "understands" the salvation of the soul!

So I guess we are left with self judgment since there is no list in the scriptures as to what qualifies as denial and what does not. I can't follow a doctrine that gives no answers as to just how one can know if they are qualifying for the kingdom.

How do you know if you will qualify Jump?

You don't, do you?

Maybe you will be all puffed up at your judgment ready to enter the kingdom and the Lord will say, you all most had enough denials but you was one short, sorry, off to purgatory with you! Then you will be bitter because you "thought" you did enough denying of yourself but you must of had one too many chocolate drops.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

Let's not play with words. When one speaks of "saved" one is speaking about entering heaven. When one is speaking about "lost" one is speaking about entering hell.

And that's a BIG problem. And of all people you should know that since you have been harping so much on Biblical definitions. Saved does not "only" mean eternal salvation. And I can't find a single reference to lost meaning "eternally damned or going to hell."

can the soul of a believer be lost at the judgment? By lost I mean end up in hell after the judgment.

Well it depends. Do you mean lost ending up in hell for eternity? If that is your question then no. Do you mean lost ending up in hell for the coming age, then the answer to your question is yes that's what the Bible tells us.

How do you suffer Jump?

There are a number of ways, but I really don't think you care to know.

So I guess we are left with self judgment since there is no list in the scriptures as to what qualifies as denial and what does not.

Self judgment is a part of it, but to say there is nothing in Scripture that tells us how to qualify ourselves in simply not true.

How do you know if you will qualify Jump?

It's laid on in Scripture.

Maybe you will be all puffed up at your judgment ready to enter the kingdom and the Lord will say, you all most had enough denials but you was one short, sorry, off to purgatory with you! Then you will be bitter because you "thought" you did enough denying of yourself but you must of had one too many chocolate drops.

Actually Scripture does tell us there will be those that thought they were ready to enter the kingdom, but they will be denied. Just look at the Lord, Lord criers who were casting out demons and the like. They were denied entrance.

So you mock, but Scripture points out exactly what you say. There will be many, and I hope I am not one of them, that will be very surprised as the coming of the Lord will catch them like a thief in the night. They will be slumbering much like the foolish virgins. That's why I said it's time to WAKE UP and smell the Truth of Scripture so that we are not caught snoozing when we should be watching and waiting!

 

[steaver]

According to Nee's understanding of this doctrine, Nee teaches that you must be perfect in this indeavor of denying yourself of pleasures in this life.

Nee states, page 32 of his book, "If in this age we do not lose our soul but instead do what we like, or if our consecration is imperfect, we will be cast out during the kingdom time and be mocked as having failed in discipleship".

Perfection is what Nee teaches this doctrine of the salvation of the soul requirers. Thus according to Nee's words I must conclude that no one will be in the kingdom except Jesus. Unless of course you do believe you will be found perfect at your judgment. I know I will not be for sure. So if I accept this teaching then I must accept the fact that I will be cast into outer darkness no matter how much I deny myself cookies and pizza.

Nee and Chitwood are two of my brother's "go to men" on this subject. Yet both my brother and his ex-pastor have lot's of enjoyment at our cookouts. They sure do not practice what they preach.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....Well it depends. Do you mean lost ending up in hell for eternity? If that is your question then no. Do you mean lost ending up in hell for the coming age, then the answer to your question is yes that's what the Bible tells us.

Great! I don't have to worry about losing my soul eternally.

This leaves spending some time in hell for being happy here on earth.

So this leaves me with a problem. Does one pizza in my whole Christian life disqualify me for the kingdom? Can I know?

I already know that I am enjoying many things everyday, so can these things be forgiven and I get to start over each day, or are they on my record forever and thus I must go to hell for awhile?

Things that must be considered!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Also, is my spirit in heaven while my soul is in hell at this time, or is my spirit in hell with me?

That really isn't fair is it, if my spirit did what was required for heaven, but because my soul was bad, spirit steaver must go to hell also??

This sure gets confusing! Are you sure God is the Author of this doctrine?

God Bless!

 

[Amy.G]

jjump:

Amy you are just rattling off church tradition. If the spirit and soul weren't separate parts of a person then there would be no need to address a person as a body, soul and spirit as Paul did. Hebrews 4:12 says that the soul and spirit are separated so that disproves they are inseparable.

Ok, one more thing, then I'm outta here. I am not rattling off anything. I was not raised in the church and really don't know much about church tradition. I learn from God's word with the help of the Holy Spirit. I already stated that the spirit and soul were separate parts of a person. But they are not separated as you want to believe. You have based your entire doctrine on 1 verse. In my opinion, that is a very bad practice and what leads to man made doctrines. But, I'm just a sinner saved by grace through a "childlike" faith. What do I know?

 

[J. Jump]

I am not rattling off anything. I was not raised in the church and really don't know much about church tradition.

Well you may not know that's what you were rattling off, but that's what it is. It doesn't stand up to the test of Scripture, as a number of church traditions don't.

I'm sure one church tradition that you believe in is that "saved" people will spend eternity in heaven. Can you show me where the Bible says we will spend eternity in heaven?

There are lots more "traditions" that people buy into without ever bothering to check it with Scripture.

I already stated that the spirit and soul were separate parts of a person. But they are not separated as you want to believe.

Now you are starting to sound like Steaver You say they are separate then you say they aren't separate. Separate, but inseparable that just doesn't work.

I don't "want" to believe anything other than what Scripture tells me. And Scripture tells me that one is saved (spirit) when you believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died on your behalf a sinner, and then Scripture tells me that the soul can be saved if you will have faith that produces works. Scripture tells me that we will receive a new body at some point in the future.

You have based your entire doctrine on 1 verse.

Amy that's just utter nonsense. One can find this teaching throughout the OT and NT. It is not based on one verse. Far from it.

In my opinion, that is a very bad practice and what leads to man made doctrines.

So I have a man-made doctrine yet no one to date has been able to explain James 1:21 alone, much less anything else. You all crack me up.

But, I'm just a sinner saved by grace through a "childlike" faith. What do I know?

And once we are saved we are to mature and move away from the childish things and on to the meat and then the strong meat of the Word!

 

[Amy.G]

Now you are starting to sound like Steaver You say they are separate then you say they aren't separate. Separate, but inseparable that just doesn't work.

What is so hard to understand? The engine in my car and the body of my car are 2 separate things with 2 separate functions, yet one without the other makes the car incomplete and worthless as a mode of transportation. It takes both to make the car complete. It takes a spirit and a soul to make a complete person. Heaven for the spirit and punishment for the soul splits the person apart. There is nothing Biblical about it.
Ok, that's it. I'm outta here! :wavey:

 

[J. Jump]

Steaver so you've run out of "proofs" and back to your unproductive silliness again eh.

 

[J. Jump]

What is so hard to understand? The engine in my car and the body of my car are 2 separate things with 2 separate functions, yet one without the other makes the car incomplete and worthless as a mode of transportation. It takes both to make the car complete. It takes a spirit and a soul to make a complete person. Heaven for the spirit and punishment for the soul splits the person apart. There is nothing Biblical about it.

You know at least Steaver "tries" to use Scripture to prove his theology. You just make comments without providing evidence and just think people should believe you because you say so.

Where is your proof that heaven is for the spirit or for the entire person for that matter?

A person being split is not that hard to comprehend. When you die your body, soul and spirit are not going to be together. So a person being split apart is okay as long as it fits "your" theology I guess huh? Or do you beleive that the whole person is dead and non-existent until the resurrection?

 

[Amy.G]

You know at least Steaver "tries" to use Scripture to prove his theology. You just make comments without providing evidence and just think people should believe you because you say so.

Where is your proof that heaven is for the spirit or for the entire person for that matter?

A person being split is not that hard to comprehend. When you die your body, soul and spirit are not going to be together. So a person being split apart is okay as long as it fits "your" theology I guess huh? Or do you beleive that the whole person is dead and non-existent until the resurrection?

You don't need a body to be a whole person. Ask any quadrephelegic.

 

[J. Jump]

You don't need a body to be a whole person. Ask any quadrephelegic.

What does that have to do with anyting? Come on Amy let's just deal in Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

What does that have to do with anyting? Come on Amy let's just deal in Scripture.

It's called an example. And I'm done.

 

[J. Jump]

It's called an example.

That's my whole point. An example of what. It doesn't have any relevance to what we have been talking about. You say that a person can't be separated, but I gave you a Biblical example that most of Christendom accepts to be orthodoxy of the person being seperated at death and then all you come back with is talking about a person being a whole person minus a limb.

That doesn't have anything to do with what is being discussed. But if you're out then we'll be seein' ya - :wavey:

 

[steaver]

(steaver)....So this leaves me with a problem. Does one pizza in my whole Christian life disqualify me for the kingdom? Can I know?

I already know that I am enjoying many things everyday, so can these things be forgiven and I get to start over each day, or are they on my record forever and thus I must go to hell for awhile?

Things that must be considered!

Also, is my spirit in heaven while my soul is in hell at this time, or is my spirit in hell with me?

That really isn't fair is it, if my spirit did what was required for heaven, but because my soul was bad, spirit steaver must go to hell also??

This sure gets confusing! Are you sure God is the Author of this doctrine?

God Bless!

(Jump).....Steaver so you've run out of "proofs" and back to your unproductive silliness again eh

You sound just like my brother and his pastor. They do the same thing. "Well, I can't explain how it works but the scripture says...."

If you can't answer the investigative questions then you are found lacking in defending your doctrine. What this demonstrates is a lack of life application for the doctrine. If you cannot demonstrate how one is to apply this to their Christian life then it is worthless teaching. There must be some dos and don'ts, some sort of measuring stick so one can know if they are doing God's will. You teach the student nothing. Any reputable teacher can give a student a life example of behavior that would give them an understanding of just how to apply the teaching to their lives.

Where is yours?

It is cultic to tell the students to just believe it because I say this is what it says. If you do believe it then tell me how to apply it to my life. Nee wasn't afraid to tell us how it is done. But you disagree with Nee, so why don't you take a shot at it?

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

If you can't answer the investigative questions then you are found lacking in defending your doctrine.

And as many times as you type this insane, childish response doesn't make it right. Steaver just because someone is not interested in answering questions that you don't want the answer to anyway and aren't going to believe it anyway doesn't mean you win by default. That's utter nonsense, but that's the only line that folks like you can come up with because you can't "prove" your own doctrine.

It's not an investigative question at all. An investigative question by its very nature means that a mind is open. You have demonstrated numerous times that that is not the case with you. You are absolutely convinced and outside a miracle of God will not see this doctrine as Truth, so you are not investigating anything. You simply use diversion tactics to take the focus of what you can't prove so that people will continue to believe what you are selling.

this demonstrates is a lack of life application for the doctrine.

Again more nonsense. How much more life applicable do you want than be ye holy as I am Holy. That's what God said, and that's what our life is to be about. And if you don't follow the commands then there are consequences for it. It doesn't get more applicable than that.

There must be some dos and don'ts, some sort of measuring stick so one can know if they are doing God's will.

And there are. The entire NT is full of them.

It is cultic to tell the students to just believe it because I say this is what it says.

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black . . .

If you do believe it then tell me how to apply it to my life.

Steaver this is an all time low for your posts. In order for a doctrine to be applicable the person must believe in the doctrine. You don't even believe in the doctrine so how am I going to be able to make something applicable that you don't even believe in.

I'm done with this thread. If you want to continue to spread your man-made doctrine of go to church on Sunday, but it's okay if you live like the devil Monday-Saturday be my guest. There is enough Light on this thread that folks shouldn't get caughtup in your deception. I feel for you Steaver. I really do. I can't imagine how much your brother aches for you, because I do and I don't even know you.

 

[steaver]

Here is another passage of scripture that states without controversy that the salvation of the soul is through faith in and the grace of Jesus Christ and His blood atonement...

1Pe 1:1¶Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1Pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1Pe 1:3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

1Pe 1:7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1Pe 1:9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1Pe 1:10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1Pe 1:12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


As you can see, reading the full context of this passage, when Peter speaks about this salavtion he list all the requirements that were met.

Works is nowhere to be found.

Faith is found (vs 5,8,7,9)

And then the clencher is verse 10 speaking of the salvation of the soul that was just described in verses 2-9...........Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Faith and Grace...........No Works to be found.

If this does not convince a soul that the soul is the focus of grace and faith, not works, then nothing will.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....I'm done with this thread. If you want to continue to spread your man-made doctrine of go to church on Sunday, but it's okay if you live like the devil Monday-Saturday be my guest.

You must be mistaken me with another poster on another thread. This topic has been about the soul and the soul's justification through faith in and the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. Christian behavior has no effect on the soul's salvation. Christian behavior does have consequences though. We will reap what we sow.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

You must be mistaken me with another poster on another thread.

No it was you. You said that a person can live like the world and still rule and reign with Christ. You said the only consquence is your position might not be as high as the next guy. That's a go to church on Sunday and live like the devil Monday-Saturday theology if I've ever heard one.

I would be curious however to hear what you think a person will reap what they sow means. How is reaping to the flesh, but still ruling and reigning with Christ reaping what you sow?