Salvation of the Soul (Page One)

[J. Jump]

Nice try Steaver, but you didn't address the text at all. Basically what you said was I know it says future, but it doesn't really mean future. Sorry that doesn't work.

And yes I believe we have to compare Scripture with Scripture, and because of that when I compare James 1:21 with Romans 5 I see that you are misunderstanding what Romans 5 is talking about. Because not a casual reading, but a plain reading of James 1:21, I Peter 1:9 and Hebrews 10:39 tell us that the soul is not yet saved. And so do many other passages in Scripture, I just gave you three that with just a plain reading of the text, no interpretation necessary one can see that if they have eyes to see and ears to hear.

The problem is that Christendom doesn't want to take the plain reading of Scripture, because they don't like the results. Therefore they have come up with all kinds of ways of working around the texts that they don't like.

You have simply chosen to say that future really doesn't mean future, but that doesn't make you right Let me just quote you so you don't think I'm making this up:

The word has been engrafted, this means he is talking to a saved soul.

James told the saved folks to receive the word, which means they hadn't yet, but you say they already had received the word. You can't just rewrite Scripture to fit into your theology.

He told them they needed to do something that wasn't done at that point so that their souls could be saved.

To me future means future.

By the way do you believe man is a bi-part being or a tri-part being? What do you believe the purpose of salvation is? And what do you believe happens to a non-faithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian at the judgement seat of Christ? Does every Christian get to rule and reign with Christ no matter how they lived here?

Just some questions so I can get a further idea of where you are coming from.

 

[steaver]

James told the saved folks to receive the word, which means they hadn't yet, but you say they already had received the word. You can't just rewrite Scripture to fit into your theology.

Here is one of your misinterpretations. James did not tell the saved folks to receive the word, let's read what James actually said....

Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

You let out three key words between receive and word...

..... "receive with meekness the engrafted word".

....."the engrafted word"

engrafted into what or whom? James dos not say receive the word. James says receive the engrafted word. So I ask you, what or whom is this engrafted word James speaks of implanted into? Mind now, James does not say let the word BE engrafted into you. James says receive with meekness the engrafted word. This word James speaks of has already been engrafted into something or someone. So what is your answer?

My answer I already gave. James is speaking to those who have already had the word engrafted into them at rebirth. Now James tells them to receive this engrafted word with meekness. In this context the word translated "receive" is "dechomai"(Gk) , not as "receive" "lambano"(Gk). The difference is this...."receive" as "lambano" is to get hold of or to take, whereas "receive" as "dechomai" is passive or subjective. So in this use of the word "receive" one must place the word use in it's passive or subjective context. In this case this can only mean that James is telling the Christians, whom already have the engrafted word, to be submissive to that word or in other words do what the Holy Spirit is telling you is right when it comes to, in this verse, "laying apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness". This is part of the sanctification process of the believer.

If you reject my opinion on this "engrafted word" then give me your answer as to whom or what this word has been implanted into that James tells us to receive.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I see that you are misunderstanding what Romans 5 is talking about.

No misunderstanding. We both agreed that it clearly states that the blood is the atonement for the soul.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

The problem is that Christendom doesn't want to take the plain reading of Scripture, because they don't like the results.

Who is Christendom?

 

[steaver]

By the way do you believe man is a bi-part being or a tri-part being?

I knew you did not do the study!

What do you believe the purpose of salvation is?

Short answer.........To glorify God.

And what do you believe happens to a non-faithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian at the judgement seat of Christ?

1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Does every Christian get to rule and reign with Christ no matter how they lived here?

I would say yes, everyone will be given their deserved position according to their own personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That judgment only God knows. We cannot judge another Christian in this way. God judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Maybe I will only be worthy of watching His ant farm. :laugh:

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Jam 1:18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Jam 1:19¶Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

Jam 1:20For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jam 1:22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Viewing the full scope of James chapter 1:21, you will find my analysis of "the engrafted word" solidly on sound footing.

Verse 18 begins with a statement of regeneration or rebirth...."Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth".....This sets the stage that James is speaking about those who are already Christians.

Verse 19 James continues to state that these he speaks of are "brethern". This would mean that they are Christians, however James begins to warn them about their behavior.

Verse 20 James begins to speak about the wrath of man, which we know is in all of us whether we are Christians or not. It is something which needs to be kept in check.

Verse 21 James tells these Christians they are to receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to sozo(gk) your souls. Sozo or save means to deliver or protect. And indeed God's word is able to save to the uttermost!

Verse 22 James further tells these Christians to do what the word says and to not be hearers only. This further shows that James is speaking about Christian behavior.

Also, it is proven by scripture given in the OP that anytime we see a pronoun describing a person it is speaking about a soul.

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth"(18)

"us" is "souls".....further proof that the souls James is speaking to are already saved.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

Here is one of your misinterpretations. James did not tell the saved folks to receive the word, let's read what James actually said....

Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

This is becoming quite comical Steaver. I highlighted your quote, which says that James did not tell saved folks to receive the word, then you turn right around and quote the verse which says AND RECEIVE. Steaver are you actually serious? How can the text say AND RECEIVE, but you claim that James didn't actually say that.

And you really want me to believe the way you do? Come on . . .

James is speaking to those who have already had the word engrafted into them at rebirth. Now James tells them to receive this engrafted word with meekness.

Your point makes zero sense. James tells them to receive something they already have . . .

This is part of the sanctification process of the believer.

Exactly . . . that's been my whole point all along. James is not talking about eternal saving faith, James is talking about faith that deals with the sanctification process. However sanctification is not automatic.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information on the Greek word, but receive is actually an imperitive (command) and it is in the middle deponent which generally means it is active. So it is something the listener to to be active in not something that is going to happen to them.

If they will lay aside these things and if they will receive the word they will be able to have their souls saved.

I knew you did not do the study!

You are right I did not read through your two pages of stuff. I didn't need to because I knew before I even started once you said warned folks not to be fooled by those that say the soul isn't saved, I knew what the previous rambling was about, and I knew that whatever it contained it was going to be incorrect, because I already know that the soul is not saved.

I have given you plain evidence that is the case and yet you still try to work you way out of the text and keep "your" beliefs in tact.

1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So what is the man going to lose?

Short answer.........To glorify God.

So fallen man was/is/will be saved just be glorify God. While I think the salvation event does bring glory to God I don't believe Scripture spells that our as the purpose of salvation as much as a result of salvation. There is a reason we are saved, and it's goes much beyond bringing glory to God.

I would say yes, everyone will be given their deserved position according to their own personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Wow so a believer can live any ole way they please here in this life, be a womanizing, mudering cheat that curses with every other word, gets drunk every weekend, beats his children, unrepentant of it all and he still gets a position in the kingdom. So this begs the question why in the world do we want to deny ourselves in this life when you are telling me we can have the best of both worlds? I can have all this world has to offer, living for self 24/7 and I can still have a position in the kingdom.

"us" is "souls".....further proof that the souls James is speaking to are already saved.

Seriously where do you come up with this stuff? Greek word "us" - hemas Greek word "souls" - psuche - us is not souls - us is us.

 

[Oasis]

Posted by J. Jump

Quote:
Steaver-Here is one of your misinterpretations. James did not tell the saved folks to receive the word, let's read what James actually said....

Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

J. Jump-This is becoming quite comical Steaver. I highlighted your quote, which says that James did not tell saved folks to receive the word, then you turn right around and quote the verse which says AND RECEIVE. Steaver are you actually serious? How can the text say AND RECEIVE, but you claim that James didn't actually say that.

And you really want me to believe the way you do? Come on . . .

Hi J. Jump and Steaver,

Steaver, am I correct in assuming that what you are saying is that James is telling them to quit succombing to the temptations of the world and to embrace, or make use of, the word that they have received?
Verse 21 in James reminds me of the personal struggle that Paul had with himself as mentioned in Romans 7:21 through the end of the chapter. Then he makes the point in Romans 8:1 that:
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."-NIV

Steaver-Quote:
James is speaking to those who have already had the word engrafted into them at rebirth. Now James tells them to receive this engrafted word with meekness.

J. Jump-Your point makes zero sense. James tells them to receive something they already have . . .

Again, I believe Steaver is speaking of the way they use what they have received.

Quote:
Steaver-This is part of the sanctification process of the believer.

J. Jump-Exactly . . . that's been my whole point all along. James is not talking about eternal saving faith, James is talking about faith that deals with the sanctification process. However sanctification is not automatic.

James is not talking about the saving event, but the evidence of having been saved. The sanctified life is automatic evidence of a justified person.

Quote:
I knew you did not do the study!

You are right I did not read through your two pages of stuff. I didn't need to because I knew before I even started once you said warned folks not to be fooled by those that say the soul isn't saved, I knew what the previous rambling was about, and I knew that whatever it contained it was going to be incorrect, because I already know that the soul is not saved.

"And those he predestined, he also called: those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.-Romans 8:30 NIV(emphasis mine)
We are glorified the moment we are saved. The mark of this(a true believer)will be our sanctified life, doing our best to lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receiving(making use of)the engrafted word. Said word having the power to save us, as James says in vs 21. That same word also having the power to keep us.
"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy"-Jude 24 NIV

Quote:
Steaver-Short answer.........To glorify God.

J. Jump-So fallen man was/is/will be saved just be glorify God. While I think the salvation event does bring glory to God I don't believe Scripture spells that our as the purpose of salvation as much as a result of salvation. There is a reason we are saved, and it's goes much beyond bringing glory to God.

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."-Romans 8:28 NIV
My sole purpose as a Christian is to bring glory to God in everything I do. That is part of my sanctification; the evidence of my justification. What could possibly go "much beyond bringing glory to God"? There is nothing greater than bringing glory to God, by both receiving Him as our personal Savior, and by spending our lives doing our best to return the love He showed and continues to show us.

Steaver-Quote:
I would say yes, everyone will be given their deserved position according to their own personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

J. Jump-Wow so a believer can live any ole way they please here in this life, be a womanizing, mudering cheat that curses with every other word, gets drunk every weekend, beats his children, unrepentant of it all and he still gets a position in the kingdom. So this begs the question why in the world do we want to deny ourselves in this life when you are telling me we can have the best of both worlds? I can have all this world has to offer, living for self 24/7 and I can still have a position in the kingdom.

I see nothing in Steaver's posts to indicate that he thinks a believer's life will not be transformed by the justification of God. A true Christian's sanctified life will be a by-product of his/her justification.

 

[steaver]

This is becoming quite comical Steaver. I highlighted your quote, which says that James did not tell saved folks to receive the word, then you turn right around and quote the verse which says AND RECEIVE. Steaver are you actually serious? How can the text say AND RECEIVE, but you claim that James didn't actually say that.

And you really want me to believe the way you do? Come on . . .

Maybe if you actually read what I post....here it is again....

You let out three key words between receive and word...

..... "receive with meekness the engrafted word".

....."the engrafted word"

engrafted into what or whom? James dos not say receive the word. James says receive the engrafted word. So I ask you, what or whom is this engrafted word James speaks of implanted into? Mind now, James does not say let the word BE engrafted into you. James says receive with meekness the engrafted word. This word James speaks of has already been engrafted into something or someone. So what is your answer?

My answer I already gave. James is speaking to those who have already had the word engrafted into them at rebirth. Now James tells them to receive this engrafted word with meekness. In this context the word translated "receive" is "dechomai"(Gk) , not as "receive" "lambano"(Gk). The difference is this...."receive" as "lambano" is to get hold of or to take, whereas "receive" as "dechomai" is passive or subjective. So in this use of the word "receive" one must place the word use in it's passive or subjective context. In this case this can only mean that James is telling the Christians, whom already have the engrafted word, to be submissive to that word or in other words do what the Holy Spirit is telling you is right when it comes to, in this verse, "laying apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness". This is part of the sanctification process of the believer.

If you reject my opinion on this "engrafted word" then give me your answer as to whom or what this word has been implanted into that James tells us to receive.

I see you forgot to give an answer. I will wait to see it next post, don't forget!

Quote:Steaver
This is part of the sanctification process of the believer.
(Jump) Exactly . . . that's been my whole point all along. James is not talking about eternal saving faith, James is talking about faith that deals with the sanctification process. However sanctification is not automatic.

This is not the debate. The debate is about the salvation of the soul. Sanctification of the soul is not salvation of the soul.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information on the Greek word, but receive is actually an imperitive (command) and it is in the middle deponent which generally means it is active. So it is something the listener to to be active in not something that is going to happen to them.

Strong's Concordance 2983. You need to actually look up what I post in order to refute it. You have not refuted anything as of yet.

If they will lay aside these things and if they will receive the word they will be able to have their souls saved.

Here again you continue to rewrite the scripture to fit your view. Let's state what James actually says AGAIN.........Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Leaving out a few words sure does make your position look good though! You have yet to tell me whom or what this engrafted word has been implanted into that the believers are suppose to receive?

Quote:Steaver
I knew you did not do the study!

(Jump) You are right I did not read through your two pages of stuff. I didn't need to because I knew before I even started once you said warned folks not to be fooled by those that say the soul isn't saved, I knew what the previous rambling was about, and I knew that whatever it contained it was going to be incorrect, because I already know that the soul is not saved.

Your are indeed exposing your character flaws. PLease don't be a Pharasee and not practice what you preach. You accuse me of the very things that you practice..........

(Jump).......I believe debate is a great thing as long as both parties are willing to learn. That means that you have to be vulnerable and say I believe what I believe, but if someone can prove me wrong I will be big enough to accept it.

You have your mind set and aren't here to learn, but to prove something to be wrong. So in my mind that isn't debate that is more along the lines of teaching. You have set yourself in a position that you are not a learner, but a teacher of all of us that are holding to what you perceive is incorrect doctrine. To me discussing matters like this with folks like you is a waste of time after the initial step.

The mirror is staring you in the face my brother. Repent!

Quote:Steaver
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

(Jump)...So what is the man going to lose?

Bad works. Works that did not benefit God's kingdom.

Quote:Steaver
I would say yes, everyone will be given their deserved position according to their own personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

(Jump)...Wow so a believer can live any ole way they please here in this life, be a womanizing, mudering cheat that curses with every other word, gets drunk every weekend, beats his children, unrepentant of it all and he still gets a position in the kingdom. So this begs the question why in the world do we want to deny ourselves in this life when you are telling me we can have the best of both worlds? I can have all this world has to offer, living for self 24/7 and I can still have a position in the kingdom.

Is that what I said? You are indeed quite an interpreter! :thumbs:

Quote:steaver
"us" is "souls".....further proof that the souls James is speaking to are already saved.

(Jump)....Seriously where do you come up with this stuff? Greek word "us" - hemas Greek word "souls" - psuche - us is not souls - us is us.

Precept #6;
The soul in connection with pronouns:
[Leviticus 5:1]- “And if a SOUL sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether HE hath seen or known of it; if HE do not utter it, then HE shall bear HIS iniquity”.
[Leviticus 5:2]- “Or if a SOUL touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcass of an unclean beast, or a carcass of unclean cattle, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from HIM; HE also shall be unclean, and guilty.”
[Leviticus 5:3]- “Or if HE touch….”
Do you get the implication here?
The Word of God makes absolutely no distinction between SOUL and the pronoun HE or HIM. Verse 2 God says; “if a SOUL touch”. Verse 3 God says; “if HE touch”.
This is consistent throughout Scripture. There would be no justification, in studying Scripture, for making any separation between pronouns such as he, ye, we, us, himself, thou, you, believer, sinner, etc, etc, etc, and the “living SOUL” that God created.

With all due respect brother, you are attempting to debate something when you haven't even taken the time to study the opposition's evidences presented. You need to study what your opponent gives as proof and either agree with it or refute it by giving another interpretation of it.

I have done this many times with you and you ignore the questions. You notice how I answer all of your questions even those that have nothing to do with the topic? You are not giving answers to my questions and this shows either a lack of understanding or a flat out closed mind on the matter, something that you accused me of having.

So if you what to actually debate this "open minded" as you imply, then take what i have presented as evidence and refute it. Don't simply say no it does not mean that and then not tell me any different.

For instance, the verse that states "Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls", I have put forth my opinion with evidence of what "engrafted" means. Yet you ignore this and continue to leave out the "engrafted" part as you repeat the verse. Tell us what or whom this word that the believers are suppose to receive with meekness has been implanted into? You have yet to deal with it.

Same goes for Precept #6 above. refute it rather than just saying "your wrong".

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Hi J. Jump and Steaver,

Steaver, am I correct in assuming that what you are saying is that James is telling them to quit succombing to the temptations of the world and to embrace, or make use of, the word that they have received?
Verse 21 in James reminds me of the personal struggle that Paul had with himself as mentioned in Romans 7:21 through the end of the chapter. Then he makes the point in Romans 8:1 that:
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."-NIV

I don't think this particular text needs to be left to assumption. With study and rightly dividing the word of truth we can be very sure that this is indeed what James is saying. However I do agree with everything that you have posted. Amen! :thumbs:

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

A true Christian's sanctified life will be a by-product of his/her justification.

Sorry, but there isn't any evidence that this it true in Scripture. We are saved unto good works that we SHOULD walk in them. For some reason Christendom wants to re-write that Scripture to say we WILL walk in them, but that's just simple not what it says.

If a "true" Christian (whatever that means, does that mean there are "false" Christians?) is automatically going to live a sanctified (separated) life then there would be absolutely no need to command it, to be reminded that we need to be separated. There would be no need for James to tell them that they need to receive the word. If it was automatic they would have already been doing it.

Again Scripture in so many areas is so easy if we just let the text say what it says without trying to manipulate it.

 

[J. Jump]

Well Steaver I spent about 20 minutes typing a response to your post that got wiped out when I hit a wrong button. I don't have time to re-type it, because we are just going in circles. The conclusion you have drawn from James 1:21 is flawed. James is telling them to receive (put into pracitce) what they have been taught.

I agreed that James is speaking of the sanctification process. Another way to express that is the salvation of the soul. Bottom line is James 1:21 tells us their souls were not saved, because if their souls were already saved then James would have said that something was able to save something that was already saved.

I do want to address some other things though.

Your are indeed exposing your character flaws. PLease don't be a Pharasee and not practice what you preach. You accuse me of the very things that you practice..........

See this is why I don't like posting with folks like you. Because as soon as you run out of your "proof" texts and can no longer talk about the the subject at hand you start in with personal attacks.

Please tell me what I have accused you of that I am practicing. See you people always post these accusations with no evidence. Wonder why that is? Why didn't you show us where I have accused you of something I am doing instead of just making a broad statement?

The mirror is staring you in the face my brother. Repent!

More character attacks hmmmm . . . so that's what this has boiled down to eh? What exactly am I in need of repentance in your eyes?

Quote:Steaver
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

(Jump)...So what is the man going to lose?
Bad works. Works that did not benefit God's kingdom.

They suffer the loss of their bad works? What in the world does that mean? So the reward then is receiving good works? I have no idea what you are talking about.

Is that what I said? You are indeed quite an interpreter! :thumbs:

Basically that is what you said. Here was my question: Does every Christian get to rule and reign with Christ no matter how they lived here?

And here is your response: I would say yes, everyone will be given their deserved position according to their own personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

You said that the way a person lived here on this earth has no impact on whether one gets to rule and reign with Christ. You said the only thing would be that their position might not be as great. I believe you said that someone could be a dog watcher or catcher or something like that in the kingdom.

So yes you basically said that a Christian can enjoys all this world has to offer them and still rule and reign in the kingdom. Now is that what you believe? It is certainly what you said.

With all due respect brother, you are attempting to debate something when you haven't even taken the time to study the opposition's evidences presented.

You are right about that. I haven't studied your position, because until you can explain away three clear verses that contradict what you are saying there is no need to study what you have said, it would be a waste of time. I don't say that to offend you, but I don't like wasting time on something that I know isn't going to be productive in some sense.

James 1:21 alone tells us that the soul is not saved, so whatever it is that you have posted as "proof" is moot until you can explain how James says the soul is not yet saved when it really is. You have yet to do that, so I still see no need spending any kind of significant time reading what you have posted in your first two posts.

You are not giving answers to my questions and this shows either a lack of understanding or a flat out closed mind on the matter, something that you accused me of having.

Steaver again the childish comments . . . do we really need them . . . seriously?

What you are wanting to do is move onto step 2 without settling step 1. There is no need to answer your questions until you can prove that James is lying about what he said. He said the soul is not saved. So until you can prove that James isn't true then there is no need to proceed.

So if you what to actually debate this "open minded" as you imply, then take what i have presented as evidence and refute it.

Steaver you haven't given any evidence that holds up. All you have basically said is James didn't say receive even though the text says receive. That's the only evidence you have presented, so until you can come up with something better we are stuck.

I have put forth my opinion with evidence of what "engrafted" means. Yet you ignore this and continue to leave out the "engrafted" part as you repeat the verse. Tell us what or whom this word that the believers are suppose to receive with meekness has been implanted into? You have yet to deal with it.

The rub is receive. That is the word that you LEAVE out in your conversations. All you want to talk about is engrafted. Steaver what does receive mean?

Receive means they don't have it yet. They have the teaching (doctrine), but they haven't received it yet, as in they are only hearers of the word (doctrine), but they are not yet doers of the word.

So until they become full fledge doers of the engrafted word (receive it) their souls will not be saved. Because receiving the engrafted word is able to save that which is not saved.

I will probably conclude with this Steaver (depending on your response). Until you want to accept James 1:21 for what it says there really is no point in continuing on. James 1:21 plainly tells us that the soul is not saved. There is no need for interpretation or anything like that, just the plain reading of the text tells us that. We have to let their words stand as their were written. James doesn't talk about a past salvation, so we can either believe that or not.

 

[DQuixote]

If the soul is the mind, why would we want to save it? The spirit returns to God, securing eternal salvation. Of what use is the mind, will, emotions in Heaven? I have a body, I have a mind. The spirit was imparted to me when I became a born-again believer in Christ. Its purpose is to overcome the mind, the will, the emotions, the natural man. The spirit is in me to subdue the soul. The spirit is the communicator with God. What purpose would the soul serve in Heaven? If I am saved, spiritually, why would I need to be concerned about saving the soul, which is antagonistic toward God, which is always at war with the spirit, which is that part of my consciouness that yields to sin?

Please -- no long-winded speeches or miles of scripture quotations. Cut to the chase.

 

[DQuixote]

J. Jump-Wow so a believer can live any ole way they please here in this life, be a womanizing, mudering cheat that curses with every other word, gets drunk every weekend, beats his children, unrepentant of it all and he still gets a position in the kingdom. So this begs the question why in the world do we want to deny ourselves in this life when you are telling me we can have the best of both worlds? I can have all this world has to offer, living for self 24/7 and I can still have a position in the kingdom.

That is a gross, disgusting misinterpretation of what a born-again believer can do. No born-again Believer believes that, or practices sin. Secondly, born-again Believers do not inherit, nor do they have a place in "the Kingdom" that was promised to the Jews. I guess the latter belongs in another thread. Jump, you don't rightly divide scripture, nor do you understand salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God to all who believe.

 

[J. Jump]

If the soul is the mind, why would we want to save it? The spirit returns to God, securing eternal salvation. Of what use is the mind, will, emotions in Heaven? I have a body, I have a mind. The spirit was imparted to me when I became a born-again believer in Christ. Its purpose is to overcome the mind, the will, the emotions, the natural man. The spirit is in me to subdue the soul. The spirit is the communicator with God. What purpose would the soul serve in Heaven? If I am saved, spiritually, why would I need to be concerned about saving the soul, which is antagonistic toward God, which is always at war with the spirit, which is that part of my consciouness that yields to sin?

Please -- no long-winded speeches or miles of scripture quotations. Cut to the chase.

Well the cut to the chase is we should want to save it, because Scripture says we should. James 1:21 tells us the soul is worth saving. The Bible always says those that will lose their life (same Greek word for soul) will find it in the age to come, but those that save their life (soul) now will lose it in the age to come.

Hopefully that is shorth and sweet enough for ya

That is a gross, disgusting misinterpretation of what a born-again believer can do.

Really please show me where Scripture says Christians can't live like that. And mind you I didn't say they could without consequences, but Steaver has responded that a saved individual can live like that and still have a place in the kingdom. So maybe we should all believe like Steaver and then we wouldn't have any rules or commandments to live by and we would still get to enjoy the inheritance of the firstborn despite being unqualified for it.

Fortunately or unfortunatley however you want to look at it Scripture doesn't allow for that.

No born-again Believer believes that, or practices sin.

Well that's what Steaver said indirectly, now whethere he will come back and correct his statement or not I don't know. And I would beg to differ that a Christian can not practice sin. No evidence of that, and it doesn't take much to look out over Christendom and see that doesn't hold water.

Secondly, born-again Believers do not inherit, nor do they have a place in "the Kingdom" that was promised to the Jews.

You are right in that born-again believers will not have a part in the physical kingdom that was promised to the Jews, however believers are being offered positions in the spiritual kingdom that was first offered to Israel and then taken away and offered to a new nation.

Jump, you don't rightly divide scripture, nor do you understand salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God to all who believe.

Well then set me straight and tell me how believing in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died on my behalf a sinner is not salvation by grace through faith. Please explain to me how I am not rightly dividing the word. I am interested to hear your take.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....Please tell me what I have accused you of that I am practicing. See you people always post these accusations with no evidence. Wonder why that is? Why didn't you show us where I have accused you of something I am doing instead of just making a broad statement?

Well I did, but I guess you just refused to read it like most of everything else I have posted. I will repeat myself once again.

Jump's first reply concerning debate...........

(Jump).......I believe debate is a great thing as long as both parties are willing to learn. That means that you have to be vulnerable and say I believe what I believe, but if someone can prove me wrong I will be big enough to accept it.

You have your mind set and aren't here to learn, but to prove something to be wrong. So in my mind that isn't debate that is more along the lines of teaching. You have set yourself in a position that you are not a learner, but a teacher of all of us that are holding to what you perceive is incorrect doctrine. To me discussing matters like this with folks like you is a waste of time after the initial step.[/

Jump's second reply after revealing that he did not even consider that he could possibly learn anything new by studying another's exposition....

Quote:Steaver
I knew you did not do the study!

(Jump) You are right I did not read through your two pages of stuff. I didn't need to because I knew before I even started once you said warned folks not to be fooled by those that say the soul isn't saved, I knew what the previous rambling was about, and I knew that whatever it contained it was going to be incorrect, because I already know that the soul is not saved.

And you say....

I haven't studied your position, because until you can explain away three clear verses that contradict what you are saying there is no need to study what you have said, it would be a waste of time. I don't say that to offend you, but I don't like wasting time on something that I know isn't going to be productive in some sense.

Now is that, well, I will use your words...."willing to learn"...."vulnerable"...."setting yourself in a position to learn"..."willing to be open minded"??



God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...There is no need to answer your questions until you can prove that James is lying about what he said. He said the soul is not saved. So until you can prove that James isn't true then there is no need to proceed.

James true words....Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls".

(Jump)....All you have basically said is James didn't say receive even though the text says receive. That's the only evidence you have presented

You let out three key words between receive and word...

..... "receive with meekness the engrafted word".

....."the engrafted word"

engrafted into what or whom? James dos not say receive the word. James says receive the engrafted word. So I ask you, what or whom is this engrafted word James speaks of implanted into? Mind now, James does not say let the word BE engrafted into you. James says receive with meekness the engrafted word. This word James speaks of has already been engrafted into something or someone. So what is your answer?

My answer I already gave. James is speaking to those who have already had the word engrafted into them at rebirth. Now James tells them to receive this engrafted word with meekness. In this context the word translated "receive" is "dechomai"(Gk) , not as "receive" "lambano"(Gk). The difference is this...."receive" as "lambano" is to get hold of or to take, whereas "receive" as "dechomai" is passive or subjective. So in this use of the word "receive" one must place the word use in it's passive or subjective context. In this case this can only mean that James is telling the Christians, whom already have the engrafted word, to be submissive to that word or in other words do what the Holy Spirit is telling you is right when it comes to, in this verse, "laying apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness". This is part of the sanctification process of the believer.

If you reject my opinion on this "engrafted word" then give me your answer as to whom or what this word has been implanted into that James tells us to receive.

(Jump)...The rub is receive. That is the word that you LEAVE out in your conversations. All you want to talk about is engrafted. Steaver what does receive mean?

You let out three key words between receive and word...

..... "receive with meekness the engrafted word".

....."the engrafted word"

engrafted into what or whom? James dos not say receive the word. James says receive the engrafted word. So I ask you, what or whom is this engrafted word James speaks of implanted into? Mind now, James does not say let the word BE engrafted into you. James says receive with meekness the engrafted word. This word James speaks of has already been engrafted into something or someone. So what is your answer?

My answer I already gave. James is speaking to those who have already had the word engrafted into them at rebirth. Now James tells them to receive this engrafted word with meekness. In this context the word translated "receive" is "dechomai"(Gk) , not as "receive" "lambano"(Gk). The difference is this...."receive" as "lambano" is to get hold of or to take, whereas "receive" as "dechomai" is passive or subjective. So in this use of the word "receive" one must place the word use in it's passive or subjective context. In this case this can only mean that James is telling the Christians, whom already have the engrafted word, to be submissive to that word or in other words do what the Holy Spirit is telling you is right when it comes to, in this verse, "laying apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness". This is part of the sanctification process of the believer.

If you reject my opinion on this "engrafted word" then give me your answer as to whom or what this word has been implanted into that James tells us to receive.

(Jump)...We have to let their words stand as their were written.

(Jump)...James told the saved folks to receive the word

(steaver)....James did not tell the saved folks to receive the word, let's read what James actually said....

Jam 1:21¶Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

You let out three key words between receive and word...

..... "receive with meekness the engrafted word".

....."the engrafted word"

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...Really please show me where Scripture says Christians can't live like that. And mind you I didn't say they could without consequences, but Steaver has responded that a saved individual can live like that and still have a place in the kingdom. So maybe we should all believe like Steaver and then we wouldn't have any rules or commandments to live by and we would still get to enjoy the inheritance of the firstborn despite being unqualified for it.

I forgive you. :thumbs:

(Jump)...Well that's what Steaver said indirectly, now whethere he will come back and correct his statement or not I don't know. And I would beg to differ that a Christian can not practice sin. No evidence of that, and it doesn't take much to look out over Christendom and see that doesn't hold water.

I forgive you. :wavey:

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Quote:
Precept #6;
The soul in connection with pronouns:
[Leviticus 5:1]- “And if a SOUL sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether HE hath seen or known of it; if HE do not utter it, then HE shall bear HIS iniquity”.
[Leviticus 5:2]- “Or if a SOUL touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcass of an unclean beast, or a carcass of unclean cattle, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from HIM; HE also shall be unclean, and guilty.”
[Leviticus 5:3]- “Or if HE touch….”
Do you get the implication here?
The Word of God makes absolutely no distinction between SOUL and the pronoun HE or HIM. Verse 2 God says; “if a SOUL touch”. Verse 3 God says; “if HE touch”.
This is consistent throughout Scripture. There would be no justification, in studying Scripture, for making any separation between pronouns such as he, ye, we, us, himself, thou, you, believer, sinner, etc, etc, etc, and the “living SOUL” that God created.

You forgot to refute this brother.

God Bless!

 

[Amy.G]

I'm not sure I understand what J.Jump is talking about. It sounds as though he's saying the spirit is saved, but the soul is yet to be saved. I guess the spirit and soul go to different places?

1 Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sound like we'll stay in one piece to me.