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Salvation of the Soul (Page One)
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Amy.G said:
Certainly. All one has to do is search their concordance for every instance of the usage of this word/phrase and one will find this priniple and fact being taught by Jesus Himself and Jesus alone.
Matthew 8:11-12 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:12-14 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 25:29-30 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
As you study this out you will find that Jesus was teaching that they who are HIS can be cast into outerdarkness for rebellion.
BTW:
Just because someone is unwilling to answer a question does not mean their argument in invalid, nor does it mean it is untrue. It could mean that answering the question will open up a can of worms.
Allow me to demonstrate.
Bod Ryan? Have you quit beating your wife yet?
Just because someone is unwilling to answer a question does not mean their argument in invalid, nor does it mean it is untrue. It could mean that answering the question will open up a can of worms.
Allow me to demonstrate.
Bod Ryan? Have you quit beating your wife yet?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
av1611jim said:
Jim seems to have a certain talent for mixing truth with error.
First of all give jim his due. .. He is right that Paul IS looking forward to something that he does not HAVE in Phil 3.
But notice that John claims that we DO KNOW Christ already - and that Paul affirms HE HAS been apprehended -- laid of hold of BY Christ. The argument Paul makes is NEVER "I don't know if my soul is saved"...
Jim -- simply imagines it.
But Paul IS ARGUING that the future reward of the resurrection and eternal life IS only obtained by that single-minded spirit and purpose of PERSEVERANCE.
Notice Paul does NOT say "Raised to enter the millennial kingdom vs Raised after the millennium" in his discussion in Phil 3 AS IF that is the topic (two kinds of SAVED).
He shows CLEARLY that the issue is RAISED with the saints OR NOT at ALL with the saints. NOT TWO kinds of saintly resurrection -- but ONE!!
And that is the glaring flaws in Jim's argument that comes from the VERY text he points to !!
None are so blind as those who will not see.
(I Just love it when Jim wanders onto the grounds of scripture to make his points from time to time)
In Christ,
Bob
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Jim, I would like to make 2 points.
1. None of the verses you quoted say anything about the soul being judged separately from the spirit.
2. You have taken the verses out of context. Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had been waiting for their Messiah. Now that He was there, they rejected Him. He is telling them that their rejection will bring judgment upon them and they will be cast into hell. Those that didn't have a wedding garment, didn't have the Savior. The Savior is the wedding garment. Jesus will NEVER cast His own into outer darkness.
John 10:27-30 (New King James Version)
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
I'm a sheep! Baaa
1. None of the verses you quoted say anything about the soul being judged separately from the spirit.
2. You have taken the verses out of context. Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had been waiting for their Messiah. Now that He was there, they rejected Him. He is telling them that their rejection will bring judgment upon them and they will be cast into hell. Those that didn't have a wedding garment, didn't have the Savior. The Savior is the wedding garment. Jesus will NEVER cast His own into outer darkness.
John 10:27-30 (New King James Version)
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
I'm a sheep! Baaa
Amy.G said:
My post quoting Matt. answered THIS question. Duh.
I'll not reply to cultists. After the first and second admonition reject them.
Answer to rebuttal Amy will come later.
The answers you seek will take approximately fourteen pages. In fact it will take many more than that since my Thesis on this very subject took dozens of pages, typewritten and with footnotes, bibliography and references.
:wavey:
I don't recall Jim saying that any verses said the soul and spirit would be judged separately, so I'm not sure where that is coming from, although it is a discussable point.
Actually it is you that have taken the verses out of the context. Notice how you go from using Messiah to speaking of Savior as in eternal saving Savior. Those are two different contexts which you are trying to mix.
Jesus as Messiah and Jesus as Eternal Savior are two different messages.
You start out correct in saying that Jesus is speaking to the Jews who were awaing their Messiah. But then you jump ship and start talking about eternal salvation.
The context is a Messianic context, not an eternal salvation context.
So just as the Jews were awaiting their Messiah, now we as eternally saved believers are awaiting our Messiah. Do you see the connection?
I'm not sure how this proves your point? Again this is not an eternal salvation passage. This is talking about obedience and following, which is not eternal salvation.
Isn't that the subject of the OP? If the spirit is eternally saved and the soul is still to be judged, possibly reaping punishment, doesn't that mean they are judged separately?
Wasn't the Messiah the savior of the Jews? Is He not the Savior of the world?
Jeshua: "Jehovah is salvation"
John 10:27-30 (New King James Version)
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
Shall never perish. What does that mean to you? Sounds eternal to me.
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Yes they will be judged at different times, but I don't think that was the point of Jim's post. Eternal salvation (which has to do with the spirit) is taken care of in this life. We are judged before we ever die as to our eternal destiny.
The JSOC is not judgement of eternal destiny, but of works done after the point of salvation. Once you die you have already been judged as to your eternal destiny.
Yes but you have to keep the contexts separate. Jesus didn't come to the Jews as their Eternal Savior. Their eternal destiny was already set. He came to them as their Messiah offering them a kingdom. Those are not the same messages. One has to be spiritually alive before one can accept or reject the offer of the kingdom. These people were already spiritually alive. Their Messiah was on the scene offering them a place in His kingdom that was not of this world. That is what they rejected. They rejected Him as their King and a place within His kingdom.
Well we can't go off of what "sounds" good to us. We have to go on what Scripture says. He was giving "saved" people eternal life. Now doesn't that sound a bit strange? Why would Jesus be giving people something they already had? The answer is He wasn't.
There is a huge misunderstanding of what the Greek word aionios means. Unfortunately translators have translated the word as eternal, which in and of itself is a really bad translation. Some of the translators have translated it as everlasting, which would be a more correct rendering except everlasting life is not the context of the text. Again why would He state that He is giving them something they already had?
Aionios is better understood as age-lasting, not everlasting. He is talking about life for the coming age. What is the next age that man kind will experience? The kingdom. The kingdom again is the context of this text. The kingdom is an age (1,000 years), so He is speaking of kingdom-lasting life.
Some will not perish during this age, while yet others will.
Again if you truly want to understand one needs to start at the beginning, because there are some basics premises that one needs to accept or moving forward is pointless.
Bottom line is unless you believe the soul is in need of saving you can jump in anywhere in this doctrine that you want to and you aren't going to understand it. That's why I have offered to visit with you offline so we can start a conversation from the beginning and you can make up your mind as we search the Scriptures.
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Right you are brother. this is much to large of a subject for the space we have and the point we are at now.
One cannot understand a house with no foundation anymore than one can understand the Gospel of the Kingdom without understanding what that Kingdom is and how one gets there. And as you said, this Gospel is the one Jesus preached. The Kingdom. Even John 3: 1-5 tells us that much.
but unfortunately many have taken that passage, ripped it out of context and have applied it unwisely to the church.
Nevertheless; all this is WAY off topic from the OP. I believe that the OP has been answered satisfactorily by a few here. Some with different viwpoints to be sure but still....the OP has been answered. Perhaps a new thread should be started to discuss the nuts and bolts of this doctrine from the git go on up to the end. then folks can make up their own mind.
(I know...I know... I know...it has already been tried numerous times but it is worth it again.)
One cannot understand a house with no foundation anymore than one can understand the Gospel of the Kingdom without understanding what that Kingdom is and how one gets there. And as you said, this Gospel is the one Jesus preached. The Kingdom. Even John 3: 1-5 tells us that much.
but unfortunately many have taken that passage, ripped it out of context and have applied it unwisely to the church.
Nevertheless; all this is WAY off topic from the OP. I believe that the OP has been answered satisfactorily by a few here. Some with different viwpoints to be sure but still....the OP has been answered. Perhaps a new thread should be started to discuss the nuts and bolts of this doctrine from the git go on up to the end. then folks can make up their own mind.
(I know...I know... I know...it has already been tried numerous times but it is worth it again.)
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Sorry I have been unable to post the past couple of days, very busy.
Thanks Amy for being persistant and not letting the questions get dodged. I see Jim was willing to answer and it is as I expected, the soul cannot be damned to hell.
So what does this leave? If the believer's soul cannot be lost, then it is false teaching to say the soul is yet to be saved. The confusion of this teaching ("the salvation of the soul") is glaringly apparant.
What you could call this doctrine is "The judgment of works". This would then have some validity. But it certainly has zero to do with the salvation of the soul. You cannot say the soul has yet to be saved and then say that the soul cannot ever be lost, (Believers in focus here of course) , that would be confusing, and God is not the Author of confusion, but we see that men certainly are.
The OP established without wiggle room that a soul is "you". Not "life of works". Works are what we do. Works will be judged. A soul gains it's salvation through the blood of Christ and this blood is applied through faith in Jesus Christ.
#1) It has been established that anytime the word of God spreaks about a "person"(he, she, you, sinner, believer, etc...) it is speaking of a soul.
#2) It has been established that the blood of Jesus is the atonement for the living souls that God created.
#3) This atonement is freely offered to any person(soul) that will receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that is become a believer.
This is all laid out in the OP using scripture that has not been refuted as of yet by any poster here. In fact Jump has agreed on the blood atoning for the soul. To say that the one time horrific sacrifice that shed the blood of Christ is not quite good enough to save the soul, is to as Peter put it, denying the Lord that bought them.
God Bless!
Thanks Amy for being persistant and not letting the questions get dodged. I see Jim was willing to answer and it is as I expected, the soul cannot be damned to hell.
So what does this leave? If the believer's soul cannot be lost, then it is false teaching to say the soul is yet to be saved. The confusion of this teaching ("the salvation of the soul") is glaringly apparant.
What you could call this doctrine is "The judgment of works". This would then have some validity. But it certainly has zero to do with the salvation of the soul. You cannot say the soul has yet to be saved and then say that the soul cannot ever be lost, (Believers in focus here of course) , that would be confusing, and God is not the Author of confusion, but we see that men certainly are.
The OP established without wiggle room that a soul is "you". Not "life of works". Works are what we do. Works will be judged. A soul gains it's salvation through the blood of Christ and this blood is applied through faith in Jesus Christ.
#1) It has been established that anytime the word of God spreaks about a "person"(he, she, you, sinner, believer, etc...) it is speaking of a soul.
#2) It has been established that the blood of Jesus is the atonement for the living souls that God created.
#3) This atonement is freely offered to any person(soul) that will receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that is become a believer.
This is all laid out in the OP using scripture that has not been refuted as of yet by any poster here. In fact Jump has agreed on the blood atoning for the soul. To say that the one time horrific sacrifice that shed the blood of Christ is not quite good enough to save the soul, is to as Peter put it, denying the Lord that bought them.
God Bless!
Yes, and this is why the foundation was laid in the OP for the salvation of the soul. With this foundation solidly laid (and not one scripture given has been refuted here) one cannot go on following false teachings that just simply cannot be harmonized with this foundation. A bible student that truly is open minded and willing to change the mind if clearly shown would abandon Nee's nonsense, not excuse his craziness.
Just reading Nee's book alone should tell one that he slipped off the foundation somewhere along the line. When a teacher slips off into bizzaro world that is when one should just turn away from anything he says and find another mentor, because truth will begin to cloud itself with the wierd and it is best to just trash the entire theory and get back to solid ground.
Jump gives Nee a pass, but if one reads his entire book, and I highly recommend it to those studying these false doctrines, they will see that it is all beyond sound biblical dividing of the word of truth.
God Bless!
I know. I sat down with my brother and his pastor and he had stack of "stuff", page after page and we started at the beggining and after about three hours we came to the end and you know what the final conclusion was? Here it is, in the end no souls are lost, only punished.
So what you have is a complicated purgatory, nothing more. I believe Jesus made it simple for the simple minded. There is no complex mystery to be found. I am just a simple sheep that only needs a simple faith. Thank God that Jesus came and made it simple. Put it this way, if you cannot make a child understand this doctrine of yours, then it is not for the children of God.
God Bless!
Here is the main issue that confuses this doctrine. Bible concordances define the soul as the person. Nee disciples define the soul as "life of works".
So as you can see, if Nee's disciples will not define the term "soul" biblically and correctly. Then they will misconstrue every passage of scripture which speaks of the soul.
This doctrine of demons stands or falls on this one definition. Define the term soul biblically and correctly according to all concordances and dictionaries and the entire 14 pages of kingdom stuff defending Nee's doctrine salvation of the soul is worthless.
There is nothing wrong with teaching about the kingdom of God present and the kingdom to come, it is in the bible, it is just false to redefine the term soul. Stick with works and deeds and you will understand the kingdom and the judgment of the believers. But redefine the soul and false doctrine has no choice but to prevail in your studies.
God Bless!
So as you can see, if Nee's disciples will not define the term "soul" biblically and correctly. Then they will misconstrue every passage of scripture which speaks of the soul.
This doctrine of demons stands or falls on this one definition. Define the term soul biblically and correctly according to all concordances and dictionaries and the entire 14 pages of kingdom stuff defending Nee's doctrine salvation of the soul is worthless.
There is nothing wrong with teaching about the kingdom of God present and the kingdom to come, it is in the bible, it is just false to redefine the term soul. Stick with works and deeds and you will understand the kingdom and the judgment of the believers. But redefine the soul and false doctrine has no choice but to prevail in your studies.
God Bless!
Steaver:
I would like to say one more thing before I jump ship on this thread. The Bible uses spirit and soul interchangeably many, many times. I believe this is because they are separate, but inseparable. While they are two separate things, they are not ever separated. The spirit and the soul make the whole person. Our works are judged, but the soul cannot be judged without also judging the spirit. The whole person (spirit and soul) is saved (justified) the moment he believes. The whole person will stand before Christ, but only his works will be judged.
This is what I believe the Bible teaches and it's very simple.
:1_grouphug:
Amen!
I would like to say one more thing before I jump ship on this thread. The Bible uses spirit and soul interchangeably many, many times. I believe this is because they are separate, but inseparable. While they are two separate things, they are not ever separated. The spirit and the soul make the whole person. Our works are judged, but the soul cannot be judged without also judging the spirit. The whole person (spirit and soul) is saved (justified) the moment he believes. The whole person will stand before Christ, but only his works will be judged.
This is what I believe the Bible teaches and it's very simple.
:1_grouphug:
I don't know if it was selective reading, or just not understanding what you read, but there was nothing in Jim's post that said the soul could not be lost, but quite the contrary. What he said is that it is not eternal. The salvation of the soul or the losing of the soul has to do not with eternity, but with the coming age.
And as has been shown over and over and over the soul is not yet saved. You have not and cannot refute James 1:21, which is proof positive enough. James tells us that it is faith mixed with works. Just because you type something over and over again doesn't make it true.
Except your foundation has cracks. Sorry I don't want to build on a faulty foundation.
Why do you keep repeating this nonsense. ALL of your notion and theory has been refuted with one single verse.
How do I give him a pass. That's nonsense. The man was wrong in some areas. That's not a pass. You chew the meat and spit out the bone. And if the doctrine is so false why are you pushing so hard for people to read the book? That's just silly.
And that is your biggest flaw and the flaw of so many Christians today. They think understanding Scripture is easy. And if it isn't easy to understand it must be incorrect. Talk about making an excuse and giving folks a pass. If Scripture was so easy to understand you wouldn't have hundreds of denominations and you wouldn't need pastors and teachers who are gifted in those areas.
Well Paul certainly disagrees with you. I think I'll take Paul's word over yours.
Amen! very simple:thumbs:
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
I don't know why I believe, I just believe. Can a little child explain why he/she trusts it's father to protect and preserve his/her soul?
God bless!
Amy you are just rattling off church tradition. If the spirit and soul weren't separate parts of a person then there would be no need to address a person as a body, soul and spirit as Paul did. Hebrews 4:12 says that the soul and spirit are separated so that disproves they are inseparable.
It's so sad that we can't just let Scripture say what Scripture says, but we have to manipulate it or ignore it to hold on to man-made doctrine.
But its understandable why no one wants to believe what the Scripture has to say about this, because they don't want to be held accountable. Oh folks say they don't mind being held accountable, but the truth be known they don't because if they did they wouldn't fight so hard against this Biblical doctrine.
Everyone wants to have a piece of paradise pie and so they believe the way they believe so that in the end everybody gets their share. Oh the shares may be different sizes, but everyone gets a piece. And what a mockery is made of the Precious Word of God.
We have to look no further than Steaver's doctrine of live any ole way you please and you still get to enjoy the privelage of ruling and reigning with Christ. Scripture says deny yourself and take up your cross, but Steaver says don't touch that silly ole thing. No need to deny yourself.
Scripture says those that suffer will reign, but Steaver says no need to suffer as you can have all this world has to offer and still rule and reign.
And its no wonder why Christendom has gone the way of the Laodicians.
Folks its time to WAKE up and smell the TRUTH of Scripture. God said He will NOT be mocked for what a man sows he WILL reap. If you think you can waltz through this life without doing what is required of entering the kingdom you are either deceiving yourself or someone is deceiving you. As Paul said someone has taken or is taking your crown.
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