Salvation of the Soul (Page One)

[Faith alone]

Personally, I think that SOTERIA ("salvation") and PSUKE ("soul") are both much too spiritualized.

SWZW = "to deliver, preserve." We should not assume that salvation is always used in a spiritual sense.

PSUKE = "soul, person, being."

"Salvation of the soul" as used in James, for example, is not talking about regeneration at all. It is talking about delivering the personal life - about living this life in a way that honors the Lord.

FA

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...but the Holy Spirit has shown me enough in the Scriptures to know this is absolutely a solid doctrine that runs the length of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. It all fits.

I guess the Holy Spirit is showing us two different solid doctrines then.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(FA)...."Salvation of the soul" as used in James, for example, is not talking about regeneration at all. It is talking about delivering the personal life - about living this life in a way that honors the Lord.

Actually James is speaking about the fact that true faith produces works. His mention that the engrafted word is able to save the soul is simply stating a fact about an attribute of that engrafted word that resides within every believer. It isn't that complicated if read in the full context of the letter and the full counsel of God's word is referenced.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

I guess the Holy Spirit is showing us two different solid doctrines then.

That is an impossibility.

Actually James is speaking about the fact that true faith produces works.

You know Christendom likes to say stuff like this, but the text doesn't say anything about "true" faith. It says there is a faith that saves and there is a faith that doesn't save. It's not a matter of true faith and false faith. It's a matter of faith that is worth something and faith that is not worth anything or useless.

The context is pitting two types of faith against one another. Eternal salvation is not the issue, because unsaved folks don't have faith to begin with so there is nothing to talk about in that realm.

As you say it really is easy to understand, but folks have dodged this book, ignored this book, tried to rewrite the book and flat out mangled the text, because they simply don't like what is plainly written.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...That is an impossibility.

True, so one of us really did not seek and hear from the Holy Spirit in our study?

(Jump)....You know Christendom likes to say stuff like this, but the text doesn't say anything about "true" faith. It says there is a faith that saves and there is a faith that doesn't save. It's not a matter of true faith and false faith. It's a matter of faith that is worth something and faith that is not worth anything or useless.

Actually it says that there is a "said" faith, those who say they have faith but have no works that show it (false faith) and there is a geuine faith (true faith) that is seen by others in the person who claims to have faith.

Who is this Christendom you keep speaking of? Is it a denomination?

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

True, so one of us really did not seek and hear from the Holy Spirit in our study?

Bingo . . . there is only one Truth! The rest is just man-made folly.

Actually it says that there is a "said" faith, those who say they have faith but have no works that show it (false faith) and there is a geuine faith (true faith) that is seen by others in the person who claims to have faith.

Actually it doesn't that I can see. I looked up every verse where faith is used in the book of James and I don't see a single verse where anything like that preceeds faith. Now I only looked in the King James and the New American Standard, so maybe you are reading from a different version I don't know.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...Actually it doesn't that I can see. I looked up every verse where faith is used in the book of James and I don't see a single verse where anything like that preceeds faith. Now I only looked in the King James and the New American Standard, so maybe you are reading from a different version I don't know.

Jam 2:14¶What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? KJV

You see "lip service" is no "true" gospel saving regeneration faith at all. One must truly have received Christ.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Lost - but still saved -- is not in the Bible.

Saved withotu faith -- is not in the Bible

Saved while fallen from Grace is not in the bible

"By GRACE as you SAVED through FAITH" --

 

[J. Jump]

Jam 2:14¶What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? KJV

You see "lip service" is no "true" gospel saving regeneration faith at all. One must truly have received Christ.

Except the context of the passage and the entire book for that matter is not eternal saving faith so your "lip service" argument, which is the argument of a great many in Christendom does not hold water, because you are saying James is talking about apples when he's really talking about oranges.

Just because the word faith is in this text and the word save is in this text does not automatically mean eternal salvation is the context. Again he is speaking to already saved folks. He is talking about "their" faith after their salvation experience.

 

[J. Jump]

Lost - but still saved -- is not in the Bible.

Saved withotu faith -- is not in the Bible

Saved while fallen from Grace is not in the bible

"By GRACE as you SAVED through FAITH" --

Well as always Bob you can convince yourself that that is correct, but it still doesn't make it so. And just because "you" say it isn't in the Bible doesn't make it so.

So you can continue to believe that if you want and others can believe that if they want, but it will be to your own peril I'm afraid

 

[Amy.G]

What you are attempting to teach is nothing more than the false doctrine of purgatory.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man depart this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P. G., XIII, col.

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

 

[J. Jump]

What you are attempting to teach is nothing more than the false doctrine of purgatory.

And what you are doing is spewing the same rhetoric that everyone else spews when they can't defend their own beliefs with Scripture and they can't debunk the others with Scripture. At that point you just start throwing mud. I guess you people think that sense you can't defend or debunk with Scripture if you throw around the words heretic or heretical or cult or pugatory and the like that you will simply scare people away from studying the matter out on their own.

Well you better hope you are right, because you are going to have to answer for it some day when you stand before the Judge. And if you have hindered anyone - well the Bible says woe to you.

And on top of that you show your ignorance of what the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is teaching and what I and others are talking about. They are not the same thing. They do have some similarities, but so does the Catholic mass and the protestant Lord's supper, but we don't abandon that teaching just because there are similarities. And I could list others as well.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...Except the context of the passage and the entire book for that matter is not eternal saving faith so your "lip service" argument, which is the argument of a great many in Christendom does not hold water, because you are saying James is talking about apples when he's really talking about oranges.

Just because the word faith is in this text and the word save is in this text does not automatically mean eternal salvation is the context. Again he is speaking to already saved folks. He is talking about "their" faith after their salvation experience.

Here is why you are very wrong. James supports his message and sums up his message pointing out that Abraham's faith was a faith that produced works and is what granted him imputation of righteousness by God. Abraham's works showed God his faith was genuine. Abraham's works justified Abraham's faith. The works only justified Abraham's faith as genuine.

Thus, anyone can see the huge error in your theory that James is speaking about Abraham saving his soul by works. James makes it clear that it is Abraham's faith that is the focus and whether or not it is genuine. Not Abraham's soul.

James sums it up with this....
Jam 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Dead faith is "lip service faith" and is no faith at all.

Jame's focus here is faith and not the soul as you claim. James makes one reference to the soul and God's ability to save it through the engrafted word and you twist that one line into "the soul is not yet saved". That just does not coinside with the book of James.

God Bless!

 

[Faith alone]

Actually James is speaking about the fact that true faith produces works. His mention that the engrafted word is able to save the soul is simply stating a fact about an attribute of that engrafted word that resides within every believer. It isn't that complicated if read in the full context of the letter and the full counsel of God's word is referenced.

God Bless!

steaver,

Thx for your comments. I must say that James is not taking about a "true" faith vs. one that is "false." He is talking to believers. He is talking about a faith that results in works vs. a faith that does not. The issue is not the kind of faith at all.

In James 2:24 MONON is used ("only'"). It is an adverb. It does not - cannot - modify a noun. If MONOS had been used (an adjective), it could have been modifying PISTIS. Hence, it is not modifying PISTIS ("faith") there. It is most likely modifying DIKAIOW ("justify"). Perhaps the best way to translate that verse is as, "You see that a man is justified by works and not only [justified] by faith."

He is not talking about two kinds of faith. James is talking about two kinds of justification - one before man by faith resulting in works, and another before God which is by faith alone.

Thx,

FA

 

[J. Jump]

Here is why you are very wrong. James supports his message and sums up his message pointing out that Abraham's faith was a faith that produced works and is what granted him imputation of righteousness by God. Abraham's works showed God his faith was genuine. Abraham's works justified Abraham's faith. The works only justified Abraham's faith as genuine.

Thus, anyone can see the huge error in your theory that James is speaking about Abraham saving his soul by works. James makes it clear that it is Abraham's faith that is the focus and whether or not it is genuine. Not Abraham's soul.

Steaver you're not making sense anymore. Of course James is talking about faith. He's talking about a working faith which saves the soul. You try to isolate things that you want to isolate and then compare things you want to compare so that you can come out with "your" doctrine. But it just doesn't stand up to the test of the whole counsel of Scripture.

I can't help it that you can't understand James 1:21, but your lack of understanding doesn't make it any less True. Again for the 100th time it is just a simple reading of the text in English.

Dead faith is "lip service faith" and is no faith at all.

I aboslutely agree with that. And James tells "saved" individuals that if they have that type of faith it will not save them. But since they are already "saved" then one must ask the question what other kind of salvation are they in need of.

And the answer is either their eternal salvation is not a one time event, but a process and they must continue in this faith that works until they die in order to truly be saved - which Scripture doesn't support. Or you can go with what James says in the opening chapter and that is the salvation of the soul, which Scripture does support throughout the entirety of the NT.

Jame's focus here is faith and not the soul as you claim.

Steaver it's not "my claim." I'm just merely going with what James was inspired by the Holy Spirit to pen.

James makes one reference to the soul and God's ability to save it through the engrafted word and you twist that one line into "the soul is not yet saved".

There is no twisting at all. That's what the man wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We can either believe it or call Scripture a lie. I prefer to believe Scripture.

That just does not coinside with the book of James.

Not only does it coincide with James, but with the entire New Testament.

 

[steaver]

Thx for your comments. I must say that James is not taking about a "true" faith vs. one that is "false." He is talking to believers.

Doesn't matter a lick that James is speaking to believers. This does not prevent James from making a point about true faith verses "lip service". Paul tells "believers" to examine themselves if they are truly saved because he has doubts about some of them. So the "he is speaking to believers" does not automatically give everyone a free pass on the faith issue.

He is talking about a faith that results in works vs. a faith that does not. The issue is not the kind of faith at all.

Yes he is and he concludes....Jam 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also". Dead faith is NO faith because faith in Christ is a living faith. A believer cannot have a dead faith.

He is not talking about two kinds of faith. James is talking about two kinds of justification - one before man by faith resulting in works, and another before God which is by faith alone.

James points to Abraham as an example. Did Abraham have an audience of men up on the mountain that he was proving his faith to? Or was Abraham alone with God performing his works of faith before God ALONE?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....There is no twisting at all. That's what the man wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We can either believe it or call Scripture a lie. I prefer to believe Scripture.

Here is what the man wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....."which is able to save your souls."

Here is what Jump writes........ "the soul has yet to be saved".

I wonder why the Holy Spirit just didn't say "for your souls have yet to be saved" .

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Can anybody who believes the doctrine of outer darkness for the believer tell me how many works I need to stay out of there?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

If God wants me as a believer to avoid outer darkness would He not give me a bench mark to meet?

I would think that God would. Surely God does not want me to spend a thousand years in torment. Is it 10 works, 100, what if I take a day off and die without working that day, what if I haven't worked for two years but I did work for ten years prior? How many works do I need to stay out of that place? Somebody help me understand!

It's kinda comical that my brother and his pastor believe and teach this doctrine of outer darkness yet they don't seem to concerned about it. My brother hasn't participated in church for years and his pastor got a divorce and remarried his first wife that he divorced years prior. He hasn't worked for the Lord in years either. I guess outer darkness isn't that important to them. Or maybe they feel they already have enough works under their belts to avoid it.

God Bless!

 

[Faith alone]

Doesn't matter a lick that James is speaking to believers. This does not prevent James from making a point about true faith verses "lip service". Paul tells "believers" to examine themselves if they are truly saved because he has doubts about some of them. So the "he is speaking to believers" does not automatically give everyone a free pass on the faith issue.

Yes he is and he concludes....Jam 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also". Dead faith is NO faith because faith in Christ is a living faith. A believer cannot have a dead faith.

That does not logically follow. Dead faith is one that is real... it's just not active, useful. When you see a dead body, do you say that it does not exist, or simply that it is no longer alive? And in vs. 20 James said, "Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless?" Not nonexistent... useless.

And regarding the other scripture...

2 Corinthians 13:5-7Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves. Or do you not recognize for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless you fail the test. And I hope you will recognize that we are not failing the test.

Now we pray to God that you do nothing wrong, not that we may appear to pass the test, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear to fail.

Paul is not asking people to examine themselves to see if they are still saved. He asks them to examine themselves to see if they are "in the faith" and that Christ is in them.

BTW, I believe this is not talking about being born again, but growing in Christ. Are we becoming more like Christ? After all, Paul and his colaborers certainly were saved. But... Is he being formed in us? Are we being changed into His image "from one degree of glory to another?"

James points to Abraham as an example. Did Abraham have an audience of men up on the mountain that he was proving his faith to? Or was Abraham alone with God performing his works of faith before God ALONE?

God Bless!

He came down from that mountain, and you can bet that everyone heard about his tremendous faith! What he did was incredible! And he did have one observer... his son, Isaac. Can you imagine the impact that had on his son?!

And Paul used Abraham as an example to demonstrate that we are saved by faith "apart from works." Sounds very clear to me, no works, nada, zip, nix:

Romans 4:1-7 What then can we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? If Abraham was justified by works, then he has something to brag about--but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness. Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares righteous the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness. Likewise, David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: How happy those whose lawless acts are forgiven and whose sins are covered!

Thx steaver.

FA