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Salvation of the Soul (Page One)
- Thread starter steaver
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Faith alone
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Guys, What verse are you talking about here? And are you referring to the "subjunctive" mood rather than "subjective"?steaver said:
Thx,
FA
FA corrected one of my errors. There is not a subjective mood, but rather a subjunctive mood in the Greek language. My apology for that mis-statement.
There are a variety of different Greek helps. The easiest one to use is www.blueletterbible.org. There is also a free program called Interlinear Scripture Analyzer that is quite good.
But as I stated . . . I agree with your usage of the word receive, but you draw a wrong conclusion. Again they were supposed to not literally receive ie take the paper the word was written on, but they were supposed to receive the word as in apply the teachings to their lives. We are also to receive the word which means that we are supposed to adjust our lives according to Scripture. If we do that it is able to save our souls. If we don't receive the word then our souls will not be saved.
As far as dicitionaries go one must remember that those are not inspired and infallable, but rather of man. Not to say they can't be used, but to say they must be used as anything else that comes from man. They must be tested against the Scriptures to see if they are correct.
Faith Alone we have been discussing James 1:21, and that is again the verse that we are speaking about.
Faith alone
New Member
James 1:21
Thx JJ,
DETZASQE - 2P/pl, aorist middle imperative of DEXOMAI.
I'm not sure what steaver means by "subjective or passive." Passive, I understand. Now this has the same form as passive, but it is actually middle imperative. They are commanded to receive the implanted Word, which is able to "save your souls." I don't see how that can be "passive." They are not being received - doesn't make any sense to me.
TOV DUNAMENON SWSAI - present, passive, articular participle, masculine, singular, accusative of DUNAMAI ("to be able, have power). SWSAI is an aorist active infinitive of SWZW ("to save"). This is from Logos s/w. Articular participles are essentially substantives - acting like a noun.
Articular ptcs. often are translated something like, "the one being able," or "which is able."
Anyway, I don't know that this makes much difference regarding the meaning of "salvation of the soul" or "save the soul." IMO, SWZW just means "to deliver, preserve," and YUXAS is simply "soul, person." I think that we make it a too spiritual of a term and miss the straight-forward meaning. In James 1:21 I don't think this is talking about gaining eternal life, but preservation of the life. God's Word, when we allow it to become implanted in ourselves, has the ability to preserve our lives and give them meaning. James was talking to saved individuals about bringing meaning to their lives - saving them.
1 Peter 3:20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared; in it, a few--that is, eight people (YUKAI - "souls")--were saved through water.
This term is also used to just refer to people in Acts 2:41 ("3000 souls were saved"). James was simply telling these believers that God's Word, when we get it into our lives, has the ability to deliver our lives from emptiness and can save our lives in every way. But he was not saying here that God's Word can save us from HE**.
FWIW,
FA
Thx JJ,
DETZASQE - 2P/pl, aorist middle imperative of DEXOMAI.
I'm not sure what steaver means by "subjective or passive." Passive, I understand. Now this has the same form as passive, but it is actually middle imperative. They are commanded to receive the implanted Word, which is able to "save your souls." I don't see how that can be "passive." They are not being received - doesn't make any sense to me.
TOV DUNAMENON SWSAI - present, passive, articular participle, masculine, singular, accusative of DUNAMAI ("to be able, have power). SWSAI is an aorist active infinitive of SWZW ("to save"). This is from Logos s/w. Articular participles are essentially substantives - acting like a noun.
Articular ptcs. often are translated something like, "the one being able," or "which is able."
Anyway, I don't know that this makes much difference regarding the meaning of "salvation of the soul" or "save the soul." IMO, SWZW just means "to deliver, preserve," and YUXAS is simply "soul, person." I think that we make it a too spiritual of a term and miss the straight-forward meaning. In James 1:21 I don't think this is talking about gaining eternal life, but preservation of the life. God's Word, when we allow it to become implanted in ourselves, has the ability to preserve our lives and give them meaning. James was talking to saved individuals about bringing meaning to their lives - saving them.
1 Peter 3:20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared; in it, a few--that is, eight people (YUKAI - "souls")--were saved through water.
This term is also used to just refer to people in Acts 2:41 ("3000 souls were saved"). James was simply telling these believers that God's Word, when we get it into our lives, has the ability to deliver our lives from emptiness and can save our lives in every way. But he was not saying here that God's Word can save us from HE**.
FWIW,
FA
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Actually I disagree with you on your last post FA, and the main reason is because I think when you try to minimize the word that has the same ill effect as trying to add to the text or take away from the text. I believe the Holy Spirit guided James to use the word soul for a purpose. And the reason is that our souls are not in a saved state.
And if we receive the engrated word then the word is able to save that which is not saved. This not speaking of a salvation in this life, but is speaking of a salvation that is for the next age, when you compare Scripture with Scripture.
Hope that makes sense, and maybe that is what you are meaning, and just saying it in a different way, but it seemed to me to that you were speaking as if James' "salvation" is for this life, and while I agree the saving of the soul has ramifications in this life, it is actually preparation for the coming age.
Hope that makes sense.
And if we receive the engrated word then the word is able to save that which is not saved. This not speaking of a salvation in this life, but is speaking of a salvation that is for the next age, when you compare Scripture with Scripture.
Hope that makes sense, and maybe that is what you are meaning, and just saying it in a different way, but it seemed to me to that you were speaking as if James' "salvation" is for this life, and while I agree the saving of the soul has ramifications in this life, it is actually preparation for the coming age.
Hope that makes sense.
Could be FA, but one thing we do know, a soul is a person and a person is saved by grace through faith and a person is atoned for by the blood of Christ. There is no such thing as a believer's soul not yet saved for a believer is a soul. This seperation doctrine is just a distraction implemented by the great deceiver.
God Bless!
God Bless!
Your spirit is not you brother. Soul is you, it is your very being. The spirit is a soul's spiritual life support with God. A soul that does not receive Christ and does not have the spirit quickened will spend eternity without God. Souls are the focus of eternal salvation through rebirth.
God Bless!
I agree with that.
I don't know that I would put it like that, but I don't know that I have a lot of concern with that statement.
I do not agree with this. Eternal salvation saves the spirit not the soul. The spirit is what the Holy Spirit uses to communicate with to the believer. His Spirit testifies with my spirit.
It is our spirits that are passed from death unto life the very moment we believe. It is our spirits that are saved by grace through faith apart from works. Because without the salvation of the spirit one can not understand God's Word, because it is spiritual discerned.
Only when your spirit is saved can the salvation of your soul even come into play.
And again while there are times that a person is referred to as a soul you can not look at that entirely 100% of the time, because man like God is a tri-part being. And if we are going to understand the completeness of salvation we have to look at the separate parts.
If James was trying to just communicate that it was the entirety of the person he could have done so without using the term soul. But the Holy Spirit guided him to use the term soul for a reason and we must understand what that reason was.
And when comparing Scripture with Scripture we know that he was guided to the word soul, because that is a part of our being that has yet to experience salvation and he's trying to instruct those believers on how to have a part in the salvation of their souls.
Faith alone
New Member
JJ,J. Jump said:
I understand. I am saying that James "salvation" here and in chapter 2 is for this life. The issue is that "soul" does just mean essentially the "life." That is its first meaning in lexicons. So I am concerned with people assuming everytime they read "soul" that we are talking about justification rather than sanctification. The context for James 1:21 leads me to assume that Jame's salvation was about walking with Christ. The entire context of chapter 1 (and chap. 2) is about living for Christ. Here it is in context:
James 1:19-22 My dearly loved brothers, understand this: everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger, for man's anger does not accomplish God's righteousness. Therefore, ridding yourselves of all moral filth and evil excess, humbly receive the implanted word, which is able to save you. But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
So the context is clearly that of brothers in Christ needing to humbly allow God's Word to work in their lives as they get rid of habits that do not honor the Lord. The HCSB doesn't even translate PSUKE as "soul" or "life," but just leaves it "save you." The very next verse tells these brothers to put God's Word into practice.
This is for believers. It is not talking about becoming Christians ("save your souls"). I am not saying that "save your soul" cannot be used to refer to justification, though as I've traced it out in the NT, there are very few instances when that is the best interpretation.
Thx,
FA
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This is exactly right. So the conclusion is not "Eternal salvation saves the spirit not the soul" but rather Eternal salvation, through the quickening of the spirit, saves you/soul.
Soul is the central focus. Soul is everything about you that can be known by others and by God. The quickened spirit is our eternal life line with God. Your spirit is not you, it is an it, it has no personallity.
God did not say you are a living spirit. God said you are a living soul.
And if you read what James said WITHOUT any preconceived ideas you will see that James states a plain fact about God's engrafted word and that is that the word is able to save the soul, and it is. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It goes too far to interpret this statement of truth, that could be said at any time and at any place in scripture, as James wanting believers to believe that their souls are not yet saved.
Now what you have been hung up on is the word "receive". And what I was hung up on is the word "engrafted". I concede that your application of "engrafted word" is a correct one. However, let me go on...
Anytime you see this Greek word (1209 as opposed to 2983) used in scripture it is used as an instruction to accept or submit to something or someone that is coming to you or has already come to you.
"Receive with meekness"....They already had the word because James called the word engrafted (past tense) . James taught the word, Peter, Paul, Jude, John, all taught the word. The word had been engrafted into them through teaching and being confirmed by the Holy Spirit indwellment.
So understand that we are to receive the engrafted word WITH MEEKNESS. James speaks for God and believers accept this because of the Spirit testifying with spirit that it is Truth. Believers might not like everything they here, we fight the flesh, but we know it is truth and are instructed to receive it with meekness. That means don't fight it.
Now there are only two acceptable interpretations for the statement "which is able to save the soul" and only two. I actually believe that it could apply to both now that FA has added his thoughts and I see more clearly what you are saying about James teaching doctrine or the word.
One, as I have put forth, the engrafted word is Christ in you. Which is able to save the soul, of course it is, it is just a matter of fact statement.
Two, as you and FA put forth, the engrafted word is the teaching of God's word by the apostles. Which is able to save the soul, of course it is, it is just a matter of fact statement.
It just simply cannot be supported by scripture that this statement declares the soul is not saved at rebirth. It just isn't there.
I have learned from this debate and now accept that James' teaching as well as the other apostle's teaching can be and is considered engrafting the word into believers, the saved. I still believe that the engrafted word is also Christ in you at rebirth, however in this verse James is most likely refering to the giving of God's dos and don'ts for the believer's life.
So I now see your view about the "engrafted word" as a correct one, not that I totally abandon the fact that we have the word in us through the Holy Spirit as well. But in this passage James is speaking about receiving (accepting/submitting to) the engrafted (what has been taught you by God's apostles) word. HOWEVER, which is able to save your souls does not and should not be interpreted as "soul not yet saved". This part of the verse is only a matter of fact statement concerning God's word, whether as in Christ in you or as God's precepts taught by the apostles. At no time is God's word not able to save a soul.
Let me add an edit of one other point. James' statement "which is able to save your souls" goes with "engrafted word". It is a matter of fact statement about God's word. James' statement "which is able to save your souls" does not go with "receive with meekness". I believe this might be what adds to your error in interpretation. If the statement did go with "receive with meekness" then James would have been very clear and said "do this, and you may save your soul". Let it say what it says. God is not the Author of confusion and God wants us to easily understand that which He expects of us.
God Bless!
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Well again here we have a display as to the lack of understanding as to what salvation is all about and what goes into salvation. So we'll just agree to disagree, because we are going to start going in circles here.
Man I just love it with this argument comes up. See I don't have any preconceived ideas. For the majority of my Christian life I believed that everyting was saved except the body. I just changed my position on this about a year ago. So your "preconceived ideas" argument has absolutely no bearing on me whatsoever.
I was going to share a personal experience here, but you don't want to hear it anyway. It would just fall on deaf ears. If others want to hear it then they are more than welcome to PM me.
Steaver that's what the man wrote under the inspriation of the Holy Spirit. If you don't want to believe that that's between you and God, but don't require others to follow your path of not reading the simple English. I am certainly not going to follow that path.
Again that's what I have been trying to say from the beginning.
Then the only question is why did the Holy Spirit guide James to use a language that suggest the soul isn't saved. Why didn't James say which has already saved your souls. It just doesn't make a lick of sense to say that our souls are saved, but James says that are souls are able to be saved. Those two just don't jive together as much as you want them to. They just don't.
Either James didn't know what he was doing or he did. I think he did. He said able to, because if the received the word with meekness then it would be able to save their soul. That's just plain and simple what he wrote.
Again I Peter said the soul is saved at the END of our faith, not at the beginning as you suggest. Hebrews 10:39 doesn't use a past tense, but a present tense when talking about the soul.
Why would these three texts say something completely opposite of what is supposedly true? None of them speak in the past tense. They only speak in the present or future. That's not a mistake my friend.
EXACTLY it is a statement of fact that God's word is able to save your soul if you receive it. And it can't save your soul if you don't receive it. It is a simple matter of fact statement. We can accept it or reject it. I simply choose to accept it as the simple matter of fact. If I am a doer of the word and not a hearer only the word can save my soul. But if I am a hearer and not a doer than I deceive myself into thinking my dead faith can save me, because it can't.
That's simply all I have been trying to do and trying to get you to do. Able means able. It doesn't mean already done. It never has. It doesn't today and it's not going to tomorrow or any time in the future. Able means able.
Well I would agree with the first part, but I don't agree with the second part. If the second part was true then we wouldn't have a zillion denominations! There is nothing easy about the meat and the strong meat of the Word!
Man's denominations and fleshly wisdom cannot and never will overthrow the simplicity that is in Christ. Not even the confusion of this strange doctrine of yours.
2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
The meat of the word is only hard for those who miss the milk. The Hebrew writer states this to those who need to be taught again the milk of the word before they can go on to the meat. It gets confusing when one forgets or abandons the foundation for the atonement for the soul that is finished in the work of Christ.
After that, one begins to add assumptions as you gave example of when you assumed this....."He said able to, because if the received the word with meekness then it would be able to save their soul. That's just plain and simple what he wrote".
You see, that is not what he wrote but that is what you wish to assume that he wrote. Don't rewrite the statement to tweek it for your doctrine. The face value reading of the verse states that the engrafted word is able to save your souls. I see your point if I allow myself to tweek what he said just that slight bit, but if I only stick with the actual statement then I must not declare what you say it means.
Besides that, after learning the milk of the word, that the blood of Christ is the atonement for the soul and His work alone is the salvation for the soul, then one would not tweek these other statements in the wrong way.
Faith in the work of Christ alone is what saves the soul. I plead with you brother to not look upon the shed blood of Christ, which was done for the atonement of our souls, as something that needs our works as well to make complete. Please abandon this doctrine of demons that only causes divisions in the church. Divisions that are unfruitful and benefits no one.
God Bless!
And that fact that you have convinced yourself that the entirety of Scripture is easy to understand is deceiving you. Whether one agrees with me or not I don't think there are many that would agree that Scripture is simple and easy to understand. But I love how you pluck one verse of Scripture out that has a word based on simple and just assume that to mean that all of Scripture is easy to understand. There is nothing in that verse that says all of Scripture is easy to understand.
The fact that there are different stages tells us that this isn't so. If it was easy then it would all be considered milk, because milk is easy to take in. There isn't a whole lot of work to it. You just pour it in and swallow. However, meat and strong meat you must work at. You have to chew. But you already have yourself convinced that it's all easy, so I'm sure this is falling on deaf ears.
Man Steaver you just twist all kinds of Scriptures to get out of it what you want huh. The writer of Hebrews didn't say that the meat was hard for those that missed the milk. He told them that they should be past the milk stage and onto the meat stage, but that they were progressing as they should. Sounds an awful lot like the church of today. They just can't get past the milk of the word unfortunately.
I never said that the death and shed blood of Christ is not the foundation. But a foundation is built upon. You however think the foundation is a complete building I guess?
Again why do you keep typing this nonsense. The word able means able, not already done. Can you please provide any evidence that able to means already done. I have tweaked absolutely NOTHING in this text. It is YOU that somehow has tried to rewrite the definition of "able to" to mean already done.
If YOU would just go with the simple reading of the text you wouldn't be having so many problems. Able to means able to. You will never be able to get around that.
Again Peter tells us that the salvation of the soul comes at the END of faith not at the beginning. So at every turn Scripture debunks what you have tried to say. But for some reason instead of accepting it you just deep twisting, dodging, turning, ignoring, redifining until you get something that is more palitable for yourself.
Really can you provide some Scripture evidence of this? I notice that you didn't bother to put a verse that says this.
Christ's blood is not incomplete. But Scripture from the OT and the NT both shows us that we must work, not for eternal salvation, but to show ourselves approved for the kingdom. It truly saddens me that you can't see this.
This is an absurd statement. I assume you believe in once saved always saved. This is a doctrine that causes divisions in the church. So should you abandon that doctrine?
Let's see baptism has caused divisions within the church, so should you abandon that doctrine?
The Lord's supper has caused divisions within the church, so should you abandon that doctrine?
See how silly that statement is. Christ said He didn't come for peace, but a sword. A sword divides. So if we are preaching the same message that Christ preached then it's not going to bring peace.
It's funny how you start your post with how bad man's wisdom is evil, yet you end your post with "your" wisdom.
Well I certainly don't know how much this added to the conversation, but as to the profitability there may be much more profit than you realize for those that read these threads and never post.
But I would agree that we have come full circle and have said as much.
The bottom line on the issue is we can believe what James wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and not change his/His words and/or their definitions or we can redefine things until we get the doctrine "we" want.
Who won? Was it a tie? Let's see what I got from it:
1. When my flesh dies my spirit goes to be with God.
2. At the rapture my body is resurrected.
3. At the same time as #2, my soul goes to the JSC.
4. My soul is judged according to its works.
5. Good works, super deal.
6. Bad works, not so super. I may even weep and wail and gnash my teeth as I am dragged into darkness.
So there are 3 aspects of my being. My spirit & body (newly designed) are in bliss, my soul may be screaming bloody murder -- forever.
Is that it? Only J. Jump needs to respond.
1. When my flesh dies my spirit goes to be with God.
2. At the rapture my body is resurrected.
3. At the same time as #2, my soul goes to the JSC.
4. My soul is judged according to its works.
5. Good works, super deal.
6. Bad works, not so super. I may even weep and wail and gnash my teeth as I am dragged into darkness.
So there are 3 aspects of my being. My spirit & body (newly designed) are in bliss, my soul may be screaming bloody murder -- forever.
Is that it? Only J. Jump needs to respond.
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