Salvation of the Soul (purchased possession)

[BobRyan]

Having said that -- as obvious as it was --

Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" for the PERSON
John 15 Cast out of the vine of Christ and burned in the fire --
Romans 11 REMOVED as a branch from Christ exactly as the lost Jews.

Romans 6 the "reward" for evil deeds is the second death.

2Cor 5:10 we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ - to be judged according to deeds DONE IN THE BODY (i.e. deeds of the PERSON) whether they be good OR evil.

These texts are NOT about "less candy in heaven" as J. Jump points out.

These are all J Jump's texts - the part where he does have truth in his argument.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The person who is the soul and the person who is the spirit are not two different persons. It is one Person -- and a person CAN NOT be BOTH lost AND saved!

There is no text in all of scripture saying "soul lost BUT SPIRIT SAVED".

There is no text in all of scripture saying "spirit lost BUT SOUL SAVED".

There is no text in all of scripture saying that you can divide the soul and spirit as to different people - they are ONE person. No "body sharing".

The PERSON thinks. The PERSON will go to heaven or hell.

This is incredibly easy to read in scripture. "WHOSOEVER WILL" is not a reference to "just the spirit".

And that is Steaver's side - that has truth in it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The stalemate comes when neither side will admit to the other side's clear point of truth -- that part of the argument that CAN be sustained by the Bible.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The stalemate comes when neither side will admit to the other side's clear point of truth -- that part of the argument that CAN be sustained by the Bible.

In Christ,

Bob

Show me Jump's clear points of truth that he has presented. I never heard Jump make any point from the texts you claim he has. They are your claims and your points.

Jump and I have barely touched on the "outer darkness" or "rewards" concept. We have been centered on the soul and what the scripture declares the salvation of that soul to be. We haven't gotten passed the foundation that saves the soul yet, which is faith in Jesus Christ and His work alone at the cross. If this foundation is not accepted, then moving on to works will bring faulty conclusions.

But I must agree with you that Jump makes assertions without scripture references consistently. And when you hold him to giving an answer he just declares that he does not have to answer all the questions. Just the ones he feels comfortable with I guess.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

(Lacy)...I've had this tactic used on me so many times, I've come to expect it.

Because the opponent cannot answer the scriptural arguments of Jjump, Myself, James Newman, Joey Faust, Arlen Chitwood, etc., they cry that history is on their side.

"NNE HAS EVER TAUGHT THAT DOCTRINE!!!"

Welcome Lacy. I was hoping there would be some more input from others who believe as Jump does. Let's not get off to a twisting start though. One, I have given scripturual arguments to every point that I presented. Two, I have given scripturual arguments to every point that Jump presented. Three, I never said that no one has ever taught that doctrine.

Making false accusations will only make your arguments look less plausible. If you truly look over all of our post you will see that it is actually Jump (your side) that lacks in posting scripture to support claims. And it is Jump who refuses to answer the tough questions when presented.

So let's stick to what i actually say when quoting my post and I will stick to what you actually say. That would be the Christian thing to do.

(Lacy)...So you then show them the literally hundreds of well respected published, teachers that taught ME throughout history (RE Neighbour Robert Govett, GH Lang, SS Craig, JA Seiss, WH Griffith Thomas, WF Roadhouse, http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/booksonline.htm just to name a few)
they cry:

"YOU'RE FOLLOWING A MAN!! I FOLLOW THE BIBLE"

What a silly trap.

Actually it was Jump who implied that steaver was following a man and not the bible so i had to show him otherwise.

But thanks for the hundreds of well respected published teachers. Until now I only heard of Chitwood and Nee. I will look some of these up and see what they have to say.

Could you tell me how far back you have researched this and if you have discovered what man first interpreted scripture in this way?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Tell me Lacy. How many years did you study the bible before you found on your own that the plain simple reading of the text said that the soul is not yet saved?

It took me about two months of every day study to conclude that it is the soul that is saved at rebirth. This after my brother told me to look into it. Prior to that I studied the scriptures for about three years and never saw anything jump out and say that the soul is yet to be saved for a believer. If it was so clear and simple reading I don't know why it is not the norm in Christendom.

How long did it take you on your own to find this? Or did some man get you started a thinking?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Show me Jump's clear points of truth that he has presented. I never heard Jump make any point from the texts you claim he has. They are your claims and your points.

Jump and I have barely touched on the "outer darkness" or "rewards" concept. We have been centered on the soul and what the scripture declares the salvation of that soul to be. We haven't gotten passed the foundation that saves the soul yet, which is faith in Jesus Christ and His work alone at the cross. If this foundation is not accepted, then moving on to works will bring faulty conclusions.

As it turns out - I have gone a few rounds with Jump and when James 2 "Can that faith save him", and Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord shall enter but he who DOES the will of the Father" and Romans 2 and John 15 and Romans 11 are brought up Jump consistently comes back with "saved means having a part in the millennial kingdom in ADDITION to heaven" and LOST means just going to heaven and living with Christ forever in eternal bliss.

I am simply pointing out that Jump has found this as a "solution" to clinging to OSAS EVEN though texts like Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" show that OSAS is a false doctrine.

With Jump's solution - he at least can allow himself to LOOK at those texts and talk about them as true applicable to all just as they say they are -- while everyone else must ignore them. Jump for some reason - does not hold your feet to the fire on that one. With Jump's solution the reader is allowed to "admit" that these texts point to something far more devastating than "less candy in heaven" for the lost.

But the problem with that is that Jump's solution is inventing a doctrine of soul-lost while spirit-still-saved and you keep pointing that out so Jump is always on the defensive.

It is easy to see it reading the post exchanges.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Oh while you are here Lacy, These are some of the questions Jump did not want to answer for me and I was wondering if you would.....

Can you answer the following Qs? I gave a hint for 2 and I gave my answer for 4. I would like to hear your answers. Maybe you can change my mind and show me how Christ did not purchase souls with His blood and show me how Christ does not possess these souls until the redemption.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Q1) Who is the church of God? Believers? Yes or No?

Q2) Who is the blood an atonement for? A soul? Yes or No? (Leviticus 17:11)

Q3) Did Christ's blood purchase souls? Yes or No?

Q4) What is the purchased possession? Purchased by the blood is souls. Possessed by Christ is souls.

"until the redemption of the purchased possession"....it is already purchased by the blood, it is already owned by Christ, redemption is promissed, therefore Christian souls have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. James, Peter and Hebrews declares the future finality of this truth.

Eph 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.)

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

As it turns out - I have gone a few rounds with Jump and when James 2 "Can that faith save him", and Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord shall enter but he who DOES the will of the Father" and Romans 2 and John 15 and Romans 11 are brought up Jump consistently comes back with "saved means having a part in the millennial kingdom in ADDITION to heaven" and LOST means just going to heaven and living with Christ forever in eternal bliss.

I am simply pointing out that Jump has found this as a "solution" to clinging to OSAS EVEN though texts like Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" show that OSAS is a false doctrine.

With Jump's solution - he at least can allow himself to LOOK at those texts and talk about them as true applicable to all just as they say they are -- while everyone else must ignore them. Jump for some reason - does not hold your feet to the fire on that one.

But the problem with that is that Jump's solution is inventing a doctrine of soul-lost while spirit-still-saved and you keep pointing that out so Jump is always on the defensive.

It is easy to see it reading the post exchanges.

In Christ,

Bob

Thank you brother. I was kinda confused as to what you were saying there. I understand now. I hadn't read any of that thread with you guys exchange in it. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

And it is clear that Christ died to save lost souls from sin. Your argument is to claim that since Christ has come to seek and save the lost - they must be in an OSAS condition no matter what the Bible says to the contrary in Matt 18, John 15, Romans 11, Romans 2, James 2...etc.

And you have the freedom to make that kind of claim since Jump also holds to the false teaching of OSAS. That put's Jump into the position of having to deny salvation for the soul to still cling to the false teaching of OSAS (which I suppose he may choose to do at some point instead of just taking the obvious course and dumping the man-made OSAS in favor of scripture.)

My argument is that if he is willing to dump OSAS then he is also in a good position to dump his "soul lost while spirit saved" solution for fencing off OSAS away from the texts that disprove it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

(Bob)...And it is clear that Christ died to save lost souls from sin. Your argument is to claim that since Christ has come to seek and save the lost - they must be in an OSAS condition no matter what the Bible says to the contrary in Matt 18, John 15, Romans 11, Romans 2, James 2...etc.

While I do defend OSAS in my life it has not been an argument in this thread. In this thread I have only argued that it is the soul that is the focus of saved by grace through faith. So my only goal in this thread is to defend the salvation of the soul as the product of faith alone in Christ. I have not made any attempt to defend OSAS nor will I in this thread.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

As is the case with your claims about spirit saved while soul lost. What you "need" is a Bible text that says that - which is my point above - which makes my statement true.

Until you actually respond WITH the text that says that - you are stuck.

BTW - it is instructive that your response to my statement saying that you had not text for that view of yours - was to simply respond again with "no text".


I know that's your "mo," but it's just not true.

Quote:
It is possible to be lost and saved at the same time. Scripture declares it to be so.

If youi had a text saying "Soul list WHILE at the same time spirit saved" you would have posted it just then.

Instead you give another "no text" assertion.

That is instructive.

Quote:
And while you are correct there is one person . . . that person is made up of three separate components.


Not three seperate persons where you could save one but not the others. It is just ONE person and the PERSON must be saved or lost.

There is no escaping this. You can not be BOTH. Sorry but - no purgatory!

Now Bob you know you are lying when you say that I haven't given you Scripture. We spent some time going back and forth through PM. The TRUTH of the matter is is that Scripture has been given and you just don't agree with it. But it is flatly false to say I have not give "you" Scripture.

So please quit with these false accusations. They are very unbecoming and do little for the conversation at all.

Now as to your one person argument. Let me see a passage of Scripture that says a person is a singular being that is only lost or saved. I haven't seen that one can you please provide it?

 

[J. Jump]

But I must agree with you that Jump makes assertions without scripture references consistently. And when you hold him to giving an answer he just declares that he does not have to answer all the questions. Just the ones he feels comfortable with I guess.

Boy isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[J. Jump]

If it was so clear and simple reading I don't know why it is not the norm in Christendom.

Because not everyone wants to be held accountable. Everyone wants the "easy" way to everything. They want to believe in Christ as Savior without having to make Him Lord of their lives and with your doctrine and others that is exactly what you have a Savior without a Lord and yet you still get to enjoy all that the 1,000-year reign of Christ and eternity has to offer.

Why would someone want the costly road of discipleship when they can have the free road of nothingness and still get everything the disciples get?

That's not hard to figure out at all.

 

[J. Jump]

These are some of the questions Jump did not want to answer for me

Now you reprimanded Lacy for not quoting you exactly, but yet you want to say this about me. That is not exactly true. I said there is NO POINT in answering your questions, because your questions are based on a false conclusion from Scripture. You took a single text of Scripture and tried to base your doctrine on it. And you took it out of context to boot.

So it's not that I didn't want to answer your questions, it was the fact that your questions are moot because your foundation is flawed. There is NO NEED to answer your questions.

 

[J. Jump]

Bob your arguments that OSAS is a man-made doctrine are so weak it's pathetic. One verse of Scripture alone completely wipes out "your" entire theory. If you understood Ephesians 2:8-9 you would stop with the nonsense of your works-based salvation.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...Because not everyone wants to be held accountable. Everyone wants the "easy" way to everything. They want to believe in Christ as Savior without having to make Him Lord of their lives and with your doctrine and others that is exactly what you have a Savior without a Lord and yet you still get to enjoy all that the 1,000-year reign of Christ and eternity has to offer.

I can't speak for everyone, but I have made Christ Lord of my life, and I don't say everyone gets to "enjoy" the 1000 year reign of Christ. I don't know what the the 1000 year reign will look like for believer's positions, nor do you. But yet I understand that I am a soul.

(Jump)....Now you reprimanded Lacy for not quoting you exactly, but yet you want to say this about me. That is not exactly true. I said there is NO POINT in answering your questions, because your questions are based on a false conclusion from Scripture. You took a single text of Scripture and tried to base your doctrine on it. And you took it out of context to boot.

So it's not that I didn't want to answer your questions, it was the fact that your questions are moot because your foundation is flawed. There is NO NEED to answer your questions.

And with that said, you still have not answered my questions. Either way, any excuse, you refuse to answer questions.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

and I don't say everyone gets to "enjoy" the 1000 year reign of Christ.

So then what happens to a disobedient, unfaithful, non-overcoming Christian in your view? Talk about a simple question. If I don't live a victorious life that produces no fruit, what happens to me?

And with that said, you still have not answered my questions. Either way, any excuse, you refuse to answer questions.

What part of there is NO POINT in answering your questions to you not get. It is a WASTE OF TIME. Your questions are based on Truth. They are based on your preconceived notion, so answering your questions would add nothing to the discussion.

See you again, like you did with the James text, want to start talking about first, second and third base before you ever hit the ball and are able to run out of the batter's box.

Until we can agree on the foundation there is no point in moving forward. It's pointless.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob your arguments that OSAS is a man-made doctrine are so weak it's pathetic. One verse of Scripture alone completely wipes out "your" entire theory. If you understood Ephesians 2:8-9 you would stop with the nonsense of your works-based salvation.

The argument against the false doctrine of OSAS is NOT that "salvation does not exist" so a reference to Eph 2 does nothing to sustain the "salient point" of OSAS which is not simply saved by "ALWAYS saved no matter how rebellious" (in one of the OSAS flavors).

Key to debunking OSAS is simply to admit that Matt 18 and Romans 11 exist!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
As is the case with your claims about spirit saved while soul lost. What you "need" is a Bible text that says that - which is my point above - which makes my statement true.

Until you actually respond WITH the text that says that - you are stuck.

BTW - it is instructive that your response to my statement saying that you had not text for that view of yours - was to simply respond again with "no text".

And as predicted J.Jum responds with "yet another no-text" post.

J J said
Now Bob you know you are lying when you say that I haven't given you Scripture. We spent some time going back and forth through PM. The TRUTH of the matter is is that Scripture has been given and you just don't agree with it. But it is flatly false to say I have not give "you" Scripture.

So please quit with these false accusations. They are very unbecoming and do little for the conversation at all.

Now as to your one person argument. Let me see a passage of Scripture that says a person is a singular being that is only lost or saved. I haven't seen that one can you please provide it?

But further adding to JJ's problem - you are now "arguing from the void" of what scripture does NOT say to make your case INSTEAD of coming up with a text that says "soul LOST while spirit SAVED" which IS the salient piont of your own argument. Your argument from the void is like arguing "when a lost person happens to own a dog - that dog is always saved bound for heaven in place of its master. Don't believe me? Show me a text saying it is NOT true."

By contrast to those "arguments from the void" WE DO show texts where the person IS lost - but we find NONE saying "SAVED WHILE LOST" so you simply make it up.

That is impossible to gloss over.

In Christ,

Bob