Salvation of the Soul (purchased possession)

[Amy.G]

I think JJump is AWOL! :laugh:

 

[steaver]

He could be too busy. I have gotten so busy at times that i just couldn't find any time for the board. Hopefully he will get back soon.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Greg has responded to my follow up questions. Here is my questions and his response.....

(Steaver)....Hi Greg, thanks for taking the time to reply. We are still confused! What is
throwing us is when you say that the total man is saved by the blood (body, soul, spirit) and then you go on to say the soul is yet to be saved at the Judgment seat of Christ.

Do you see the confusion? You say the soul will be saved or lost at the
judgment seat, then you say yet the "total man" (which includes the soul, will still be saved. I just cannot grasp what you are seeing. Are there
two souls?

Greg's response.....

(Greg)....The answer is found in the difference between what God "saved". He saved the total you, every part of you. You will be in heaven for eternity. But the you that is "you" is now called to a life of obedience to what He saved you for. Ultimately, He didn't save you just to take you to heaven, or He would have taken you the moment He saved you. No, He's left you in the world because He plans for you to impact the world for His glory. Your and my witness to the world in both word and deed will determine whether or not the soul is saved in the day of accountability before the Judgment Seat of Christ. In other words, if God hadn't made your salvation applicable to your life (your natural life within your body) that same soul would never be able to "serve God acceptably." So your life in the natural world is "under the blood" and your soul will be in heaven eternally. BUT, God sanctified your soul (i.e., set it apart for himself) FOR THE PURPOSE OF bringing honor and glory to him. Many Christian fail to do so and the Bible calls them "carnal," or, "fleshly", minding the things of the flesh as opposed to the Spirit. Their souls (accounted for under the blood, yes--but also accountable TO God BECAUSE OF THE BLOOD) can experience the loss of the reward, "yet he himself shall be saved, so as though fire" (1Cor.3:15b).

As you can see, the same confusion remains in his second response. I have emailed him a third time with the same question, that is "why do you say the soul is saved eternally and then you say the soul will be lost or saved at the judgment seat of Christ?" I'm not sure why he hasn't cleared this up, it seems to be a very simple question to a very obvious contradiction of terms.

I will let you know his response.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Well Greg has responded and the results remain the same. Here is his words in a nut shell....

(Greg)...The total man is "under the blood." His spirit and soul will reside in Heaven in a redeemed body for eternity....

.....So, one's soul is guaranteed to be present in heaven from the moment his spirit was born again. You might say it comes with the package. In that broader sense, God saves the whole man or he
isn't saved at all.....

....because evangelicals have been in the habit of using the terms "spirit" and "soul" interchangeably, many are confused. My soul didn't get save when I was born again, it was given the potential to become saved through walking in the works God foreordained (Eph. 2:10) that I "should walk in them." If my works tested by fire at the judgment seat attest to the fact that the Holy Spirit did many works through by life on earth, I can experience the salvation of my soul. If not, my works are of the flesh, do not make the grade when judged, and I suffer the loss of the
rewards I could have had. My soul will not be saved, because it never was transformed by the renewing of my mind, that I might have known what the Father's good and perfect will.

There it is again. starts out with soul eternally in heaven and ends with the soul will not be saved. Go figure! I did write him once more to ask if there are two souls. Will see.

I wish Jump would come back, maybe he could clear this up. I know Greg feels he knows this doctrine inside and out and he is a big fan of Arlen Chitwood as well. But he sure has me confused!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Ok, I pressed Greg about this contradiction and he responded.

(steaver)....Is there one soul saved to heaven eternally, which can then be lost for a time in outer darkness, and then restored again to fellowship, which would then support the eternal position?

(Greg)....Yes, as long as you remember that “lost” doesn’t mean lost in the sense of not being in Heaven, or sent to hell. Those who suffer this loss are simply excluded from the wedding feast and the right to rule and reign with Christ as the Bride or wedding guests, and are confined to an area of Heaven that keeps them sidelined from participating in the Kingdom reign. So, yes, that would more closely depict the biblical position, for God promises the wiping away of every tear and even the memory of this Earth and it’s former sorrows AFTER the Millennial Reign of Christ concludes.

(steaver)...The bottom line of my problem with this is saying the "total" man is saved "eternally" and then saying the soul will be saved or lost at the judgment seat. That's all I am addressing. Outer darkness and kingdoms can all be debated, but using the term soul in two separate opposing applications is what is wrenching this conversation. Don't you see what I see?

(Greg)...The reason I say the “total” man is saved eternally, is because the soul is not castaway out of Heaven. If the man is saved, he will be in Heaven body, soul and spirit forever. It is just that the issue of the soul being “saved for Jesus” while on Earth is connected to the issues at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Ok, that clears that up. He says that the soul is saved eternally and then it can be lost into outer darkness for 1000 years and then restored again to fellowship.

Where is Jump? I would like to know if he agrees with this.

God Bless!

 

[DQuixote]

because evangelicals have been in the habit of using the terms "spirit" and "soul" interchangeably, many are confused. My soul didn't get save when I was born again, it was given the potential to become saved through walking in the works God foreordained (Eph. 2:10) that I "should walk in them." If my works tested by fire at the judgment seat attest to the fact that the Holy Spirit did many works through by life on earth, I can experience the salvation of my soul. If not, my works are of the flesh, do not make the grade when judged, and I suffer the loss of the rewards I could have had. My soul will not be saved, because it never was transformed by the renewing of my mind, that I might have known what the Father's good and perfect will.

It doesn't get much more confused than this..... until later on in this same thread. This is sad beyond belief. Who in the world thought this baloney up and who is pushing it?

Father deliver them from this deceit and then forgive them, they know not what they do. :tear:

 

[Eliyahu]

Steaver seems to be correct.
Jump needs some more spiritual jump.

 

[steaver]

My final email to Greg.....

(steaver)....

Greg, you wrote......

"The reason I say the "total" man is saved eternally, is because the soul is not castaway out of Heaven. If the man is saved, he will be in Heaven body, soul and spirit forever. It is just that the issue of the soul being "saved for Jesus" while on Earth is connected to the issues at the Judgment Seat of Christ. In order to "save ourselves for Him" we must lose ourselves in His love and will".

This then boils down to two salvations for the soul. I believe this only causes confusion and is probably why you cannot find too many Christians who jump on board the concept.

I have read all that you have taken the time to write. What would be the difference in your life as opposed to mine in as far as dieing to self and working towards rewards? I don't see how believing in outer darkness for
Christians changes my life in any way. I study the Word almost daily, pray without ceasing, always adjust my emotions keeping them in check with
God's Word. I strive daily to please Jesus Christ even when it pains me or frustrates others. My world revolves around Jesus, but not because I fear outer darkness, but because of love and what He has done for me.

You know, I really don't want any rewards. I just want peace and rest from this evil world. The thought of working for my soul to avoid outer darkness does not motivate me at all. I work for Jesus only for the satisfaction of seeing others blessed or saved. I work out of love.

If this outer darkness you teach is the way it is, how do I know if I will have my soul saved for Jesus? How many works qualify me for salvation from outer darkness? Wouldn't Jesus want me to know? Watchman Nee says you must be perfect. This would mean all of us are going to outer darkness. Do you believe you are going to have your soul saved? Do you know? Can you know? Many questions arise from this doctrine.

You are a walking bible Greg. You know scriptures inside and out and could probably quote many passages from memory. But set aside teaching what a passage means for a moment and answer some of these questions. How can I know that I will not be cast into outer darkness? How many works do I need to qualify for salvation of my soul for Jesus? If I am motivated to yield my life in exchange for saving my soul from outer darkness, is this seen as selfish, as opposed to motivated to yield my life out of just pure love for others in the name of Christ? So many questions this doctrine brings up.

God Bless! YBIC

(Greg)....

Steve,

It would take a decade of Sundays to answer your various questions. From what you wrote, your frustration and confusion are evident. I'm sorry I haven't been able to help you. I appreciate your devotion to Jesus and I'm sure you seek to serve Him out of love. But I can also see that you have misunderstood much or what I said to try to help you. I do not believe in serving God to escape outer darkness, to gain an upper hand on rewards in competition with other believers. I serve and love the Lord because He first loved me. The doctrines of discussion are not "concepts" they are doctrines. To say you don't want any rewards is to deny what Jesus, Paul, the writer of Hebrews, David in the Psalms the Gospel writers all told us to strive for. It seems to me that you have so many bits and pieces of other doctrinal systems, that you are lacking a systematic approach to Scripture. You can't build a systematic theology on the writings and whims of other people's opinions, including my own. I've given you my best effort at explaining your questions piece mill. The only other alternative would be to sit and teach you systematically, but I'm not getting the impression that you're up for that. I love you in the Lord and wish you the best with your studies. I deeply appreciate you efforts to honor the Lord at every turn of you day to day. Keep up the good work. Hope to see you some time soon'

Still YBIC,

Greg

As always with those who teach the doctrine of 'soul not yet saved' for Christians the conversation ends when they are asked some self examining questions and asked to apply the doctrine to real life.

Greg has ended the conversation rather than answering the life application questions. This is consistent with every person I have conversated with about this issue.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

Probably against my better judgment I am going to address your last post.

As always with those who teach the doctrine of 'soul not yet saved' for Christians the conversation ends when they are asked some self examining questions and asked to apply the doctrine to real life.

Steaver this statement is not true at all. I have answered many of these type questions for you in the past. I have even offered to have an offline conversation with you so that we can visit one on one about the matter.

And that offer is still available to you. You are more than welcome to email me at any time and we can discuss these matters.

Greg has ended the conversation rather than answering the life application questions. This is consistent with every person I have conversated with about this issue.

Again this is not a true statement. Let me "again" answer at least one of your questions for you, and repeat my offer to contact me via email to discuss more.

You ask the question "how many works do I have to do?" The answer to that is simple. It's not about the "amount" of works. The Bible never puts an exact number on it, because that is not the point.

The point of the salvation of the soul is a lifetime of faith that produces works of obedience, faithfulness and overcoming. We must enter and run the race as to win the race. We must as Paul be able to say that we have finished the race. We must cross the finish line.

The "number" of works that equate to gold, silver and precious stones are immaterial to the conversation.

Again the the offer is still open. Contact me offline if you would like to have more discussions.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)....You ask the question "how many works do I have to do?" The answer to that is simple. It's not about the "amount" of works. The Bible never puts an exact number on it, because that is not the point.

I did not ask you to analyze my question and give an opinion as to whether or not it is a "correct" question to ask.

(Jump)...The point of the salvation of the soul is a lifetime of faith that produces works of obedience, faithfulness and overcoming. We must enter and run the race as to win the race. We must as Paul be able to say that we have finished the race. We must cross the finish line.

And you will not know if you have been faithful and overcoming until Jesus judges you. You may think you have done well, but you cannot be sure until the judgment.

BTW, do you agree with Greg's two salvations of the soul doctrine? One by the blood at conversion and another at the judgment seat of Christ. But ultimately the soul stays saved eternally, it just may get lost into outer darkness for 1000 years.

God Bless!

 

[J. Jump]

Well as I suspected I should have just stayed away . . . I guess I'm always holding out hope that a "real" conversation can be had on the matter . . . I'm not sure what it is that you are seeking Steaver, but answers it is not . . .

And by the way I would still love the opportunity to visit with your brother and Greg. Drop me a way to contact them if you don't mind.

 

[steaver]

I posted Greg's unedited comments. Do you agree with them? The yes, the total man (body soul spirit) is saved by the blood and then a second salvation of the soul is for the 1000 year reign?

I'm not sure I want to hook you up with Greg. Where two or more are gathered together in error it is harder to have one see the truth. However, I am finding it true that each one who believes in this strange doctrine has conflicting views with the others who also believe in it. So maybe by hooking you up you will see even more confusion in it and abandon it. I will think about it.

Chitwood tells me the Christian soul can be lost forever. Greg tells me it is saved forever and potientally lost for a spell. Nee tells me that I must live a life of poverty and misiery. You say not. You say the soul has yet to be saved. Greg says it is saved at rebirth and then it must be saved again for Jesus' reign.

So maybe you two hooking up would be a good thing to open your eyes a little. We'll see.

God Bless!

 

[webdog]

Some people like being told 'what to think' J. Jump, and when you challenge or encourage someone to step out of their comfort zone and think for themselves, they get defensive.


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I thought we were to depend on the Holy Spirit for guidance, and not to "think for ourselves"?

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil.