salvation question

I'm not Arminian, but I am definitely not Calvinist, so I guess I can respond...

The point of our witnessing is to encourage people to look at Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. We cannot save anyone, but we CAN encourage those who will finally make a decision for Christ to make it earlier and not later in their lives. We CAN save them a lot of heartache and wasted years.

The fact of salvation is a deeply personal one between God and the individual and although I strongly oppose the idea that God chose who would be saved from all eternity past, it is true that since He invented time itself, and, as He says in Isaiah, knows the end from the beginning, He knows who will choose the truth in life and who will choose the lie (Romans 1-2).

But the matter of 'when' is also important. Let a man come to Christ before he is a father and not after he is a grandfather, and the family is saved enormous problems. It's that sort of thing.

It may be our fault regarding many of the problems the person must go through, and those he causes, before his is saved, and even after if no one takes the time to walk alongside him and disciple him -- but salvation itself is from and of the Lord and is a matter of a very personal submission to Him by each person who will.

 

Ezekiel 3:16-21

16And at the end of seven days, the word of the LORD came to me: 17"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18If I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked person shall die for his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 19But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die for his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul. 20Again, if a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits injustice, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die. Because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered, but his blood I will require at your hand. 21But if you warn the righteous person not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning, and you will have delivered your soul."
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I know this isn't directly relevant, but I think it demonstrates a precedent of God holding one accountable for not informing another.

 

We will be held accountable for the times that the Spirit told us to speak to someone about Christ and we did not.

Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Now, this does not mean that the saved person will lose his or her salvation, but that the saved will have to give account for not witnessing Christ. That person will not lose salvation, but rather rewards.

 

I notice that nobody is really dealing with the key question (it was implied, but I think it was meant to be direct):

Is it possible that the man in the ICU bed could have been saved if someone had shared the Gospel with him?

You rightly point out that the man will go to hell because of his sin, not because of the sin of the person who failed to share the Gospel.

But the question remains, could he possibly have been spared the fate of hell if someone had only shared the Gospel with him while he still had a chance?

 

So the eternal destiny of man not only depends on his being able and willing to believe in his fallen condition, but it also depends on whether or not someone actually gives him the information in time. Does it also depend on how well that person presents the information?

I'm sorry to keep asking more detailed questions, but I want to know just how little control God has over this situation. So far, He can't manage to save anyone unless fallible man manages to get information to another fallible man in time, and even then that fallible man can't necessarily process the information properly in order to make a "right" decision.

Does it also depend on how well that fallible man with the message presents the information, too?

What a mess.

How odd that a sparrow doesn't fall to the ground apart from God's will. Yet people go to hell all the time because God's sovereign will is that the eternal destiny of fallen man should be left in the hands of other fallen men. Surely God loves sparrows a lot more than He loves men.

 

Great question, pituophis. Although I know you don't want to hear from me, being a C, but I can't help it, man! THIS WAS THE PRIMARY ISSUE THAT LED ME TO CONCLUDE THAT GOD IS SOVEREIGN! I was in a Hyles/Gray-ite church one time where I was told over and over that so many people are going hell and it's going to be all my fault. And then I said to myself: Is that Bible truth or fundy legend? And you know what I found out? Well I won't say the rest of it. Like you, I want to see what the arminians do with this question.

 

So the eternal destiny of man not only depends on his being able and willing to believe in his fallen condition, but it also depends on whether or not someone actually gives him the information in time. Does it also depend on how well that person presents the information?

I'm sorry to keep asking more detailed questions, but I want to know just how little control God has over this situation. So far, He can't manage to save anyone unless fallible man manages to get information to another fallible man in time, and even then that fallible man can't necessarily process the information properly in order to make a "right" decision.

Does it also depend on how well that fallible man with the message presents the information, too?

What a mess.

How odd that a sparrow doesn't fall to the ground apart from God's will. Yet people go to hell all the time because God's sovereign will is that the eternal destiny of fallen man should be left in the hands of other fallen men. Surely God loves sparrows a lot more than He loves men. </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 10:13-17 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes, one must witness to the lost... even on their death beds. How shall they hear without a preacher

 

Standing, please finish the passage:
Romans 10:18
But I ask: did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has goine out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world"

The quote is direct from Psalm 19, which refers to the heavens declaring the glory of God. "Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge." Paul relates this DIRECTLY to the fact that all people have heard. This is HIS connection, not mine. It is also a direct reference to the fact that the gospel story is related in the zodiac and it was known that way until it was perverted by Satan into today's astrology.

There is no man on earth who has not, in some way, had the opportunity in his life to seek the truth of God, by being presented with enough truth to head in the right direction. From there the Father would lead them to the Son, who would refuse no one.

Our witness is in every moment of our lives, not just in words -- in fact often least of all in words. In that sense we should be showing/sharing the Gospel with every act, thought, word in our lives. When we do not, we will be responsible for the consequences -- although God will not allow the consequences of OUR actions or lack of them to send a person to hell. That is something between God and each individual, as previously stated.

 

I'm pretty sure Paul believed that a man is responsible for his own sins but a Christian that does not witness to him carries the blood of that man on his hands (compare Acts 20:26 with Ezekiel 33).

There's just no way to get around our responsibility to witness. Faith cometh by hearing...

 

Finish the quote, please...

This indicates not only that God sends people to preach the Gospel, but that God has sent the word out to the all of the earth, yet that didn't matter. Why? Because hearing [physical hearing] of the words is not what matters. What matters is hearing [spiritual hearing], which comes by the utterance (rhema) of God.

But I didn't think we were discussing what the Bible says. I thought we were discussing a hypothetical situation where someone goes to hell because his buddy neglected to share the Gospel at his death bed. If you want to discuss what the Bible says, that's a whole 'nother topic.

 

Jesus took man's place "on the cross", (dying for man's sins) then told man to take his place, "preaching the gospel", and what was Jesus mission,

"I came to seek and save that which was "lost".

And to accomplish that mission, God has "Equiped" each with all the "tools" we need to work with by "predestine" each to "Conform to his (Jesus) Image".

Here's a few of the "ways" we "conform".

You tell me, "ARE WE" responsible for informing the world of God's plan of salvation???

Do you suppose Jesus would have "stayed home" from Church to watch the "playoffs", went all week without talking about/thinking/praying to God, postponed visiting a sick/lost person, because the fish were biting/grass needed mowing???

Jesus "skipped lunch" to preach to the woman at the well, but today, "wordly matters" takes precedence over "Spiritual matters", we'll do it first thing, "After lunch".

 

No, I am not a universalist. The key is in Romans 1, where we read that God's wrath is being poured out on those who suppress the truth...

You cannot suppress what you have not been aware of.

God has made enough of the truth of Himself and that He will provide for salvation available to every adult who ever has lived to provide that person with the opportunity to choose the truth or choose the lie. One or the other. Those that want the truth will get it, as the Father will lead these people to Christ, who refuses none. However those who prefer the lie, consistently, will finally get that, too, just as Romans 1 indicates.

"Choose this day whom you will serve" is a real and available choice to all people.

My father was a 'deathbed conversion', but it was more of a deathbed 'completion'. He had been searching for the truth his entire life, but the circumstances of his life precluded his associating that truth with the Bible. On the August before he died, when he was very sick, I was sitting by his bed and we were quietly talking, and he asked me about my faith. I told him my story. After that, God did the rest. He died November 1, 1978, literally full of joy that he had found out the answer to his lifelong search for truth: Jesus Christ. God allowed me to be there to answer the questions he asked, when he was ready to ask them. But he had also seen my life change before that, so there was a reason for him to ask the questions. "Seek and ye shall find" is a two-edged sword also -- some seek the lie and get it. My father sought the truth and God made sure he got it, and it was received with joy and thanksgiving.

It was, actually, listening to fights like there are here on BB which turned him totally off to 'religion' when he was a radio announcer in the fifties and drew Sunday duty for eight years, thus listening to fourteen religious broadcasts each Sunday and ministers, rabbis, brothers, fathers, pastors, etc. all trooped in for their individual half-hour broadcasts -- and fought like cats and dogs as they passed each other coming and going.

Daddy HEARD all right -- and then he SAW the results of the things these men believed in their behavior towards one another.

Any unbeliever who wants the truth and reads these threads or becomes aware of the Calvinist heresy that he may or may not have been chosen by God before he was born and therefore there is no chance for him if he was not chosen -- these people will, like my father, be totally turned off to the Bible they see presented here.

And that is why
1. I will fight Calvinism with every ounce of my being as long as I can
and
2. I have stated over and over again on this board that our witness is our lives. What people see trumps what they hear.

In the meantime, people have SEEN the Gospel from the beginning, as Paul stated in the part of the passage folks still refuse to quote which is from Psalm 19 -- which Paul directly connects with the preaching of the Gospel. "The heavens declare the glory of God." It has been warped and perverted into astrology, but the truth was there from the beginning, right along with the promise to Eve, that God Himself would provide and, in fact, WAS the Savior Himself, and that we could always trust Him with ourselves.

 

No, I am not a universalist. The key is in Romans 1, where we read that God's wrath is being poured out on those who suppress the truth...</font>[/QUOTE]That has nothing to do with what pituophis asked. If all the Father gives Jesus WILL come to Jesus, then nobody who suppresses the truth can possibly stop that from happening. They WILL come to Jesus, period. There is no uncertainty in that sentence. There is no possibility of them NOT coming, because they WILL come. There is nothing that can stop them. And the rest of the verse shows that those who come to Jesus will NOT be turned away no matter how they come.

So all your worrying about what Calvinists say is in vain. Nothing can stop the elect from coming to Jesus. It seems as if you are on a personal crusade because you blame Calvinists for the fact that your father rejected the Gospel. I'm sorry about your father, but I suggest that is clouding your view of what the Bible says.

 

My father was simply a case in point. He is not the reason I believe as I do. I believe as I do because of what the Bible says.

There is ample evidence in the Bible that the elect are not always coming to God! The Jewish people are called 'the elect' a number of times and it is VERY clear they have rejected their Messiah in large numbers of individuals, as a religion, as a culture, and as a nation.

 

Well said, Helen.

The problem with the above non-cited quote, that Helen is referrring back to, is that it seeks to impose a 'theological construct' onto a word, absent Scripture or context.

Ed.

 

The Jewish people ARE the elect, but many (not all, but many) of the references to them as being elect are about how the Jews were elected for the purpose of receiving and maintaining God's Word. That has nothing to do with salvation.

To draw a conclusion based on the fact that the Jews are called the "elect" is taking the word "elect" with respect to salvation and misapplying it. That's not a good way to read and understand the Bible.

Case and point: Jesus is God's only begotten son. Well, Hebrews refers to Isaac as Abraham's only begotten son, too. Does that mean Ishmael never existed? No. It means that the expression has at least one meaning that isn't the obvious one. It would be a mistake to say that because Isaac had a blood brother that Jesus also has a blood brother because they're both called the only begotten sons. In the same way, it is a mistake to say that election doesn't guarantee salvation because the word is used for some unsaved Jews.

Context, context, context.