Salvation THEN Discipleship as Seen in Communion

[skypair]

Romans 5:10 is not about the symbolism of the elements in communion as your OP tries to make it. Your error, at least in part, is in trying to make his body and blood represent two different things. In fact, they are one thing.

They bought sinners. I didn't know there was any debate about that.

So there is no different teaching for believers between the death of Christ and the life of Christ? Communion is all about death and remembrance thereof? That we take it regularly but are baptized only once is of no particular significance? You still can't see the blood of His atoning death as separate from the body of is sacrificial life broken for us?

Do you believe that there is any "sanctifying" purpose in taking communion?

skypair

 

[skypair]

MB,

I am not upset at all. I just don't think that you realize that even the decision not to resist is a choice YOU make in consideration of new information. In fact, you've you've chosen not to resist twice now regarding your understanding of own salvation.

Your "receive" analogy is really quite off-base. A gift is something you want to receive when it is offered. I can't think of anyone who would offer you a whiplash and you want to receive it. Show me, please, where salvation is a bad thing to be "run over" by.

I added the words to show what was being spoken of. You obivously thought it was God's work that makes them believe whereas the passage in context says that if we want to do the works of God, we would believe on Christ. Obviously, you arent "buying" that nor the MANY other places where people ask what they must do to be saved and the answer comes back "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." Am I understanding you right -- that you don't have to believe? you just have to not resist?

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

So there is no different teaching for believers between the death of Christ and the life of Christ?

Yes, there is a difference. But is has nothing to do with communion.

Communion is all about death and remembrance thereof?

Yes.

That we take it regularly but are baptized only once is of no particular significance?

Not particularly no, in the context in which you are using it here.

You still can't see the blood of His atoning death as separate from the body of is sacrificial life broken for us?

No. The body broken and the blood shed are biblical references to the same thing--his atoning death.

Do you believe that there is any "sanctifying" purpose in taking communion?

Sure, it's a matter of reverential obedience and worship in regularly remembering the death of our Lord and proclaiming it to others.

 

[MB]

MB,

I am not upset at all. I just don't think that you realize that even the decision not to resist is a choice YOU make in consideration of new information. In fact, you've you've chosen not to resist twice now regarding your understanding of own salvation.

I don't suppose you ever thought that maybe I was just a passive spectator

Your "receive" analogy is really quite off-base. A gift is something you want to receive when it is offered. I can't think of anyone who would offer you a whiplash and you want to receive it. Show me, please, where salvation is a bad thing to be "run over" by.

Salvation doesn't run over anyone but in a passive state we can receive it like receiving an impression from a description someone has given you. The impression wasn't your idea but the idea of the one describing it. You only receive the correct impression when you have the right information. It's not a matter of choice but a fact of how it is described. The one describing it has created the impression in your mind. There simply was no choice involved. Only in your passiveness do you listen allowing the impression to passively form, is all that is needed.
King Aggrippa for instance;
Paul asked him;
Act 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
How could a man be persuaded? Only by the images placed in his mind by Paul. Aggripa almost believes but rejects it for darkness. His only choice because it was God's choice to persuade him which is why Paul preached to him. It was God that was doing the persuasion. Aggripa was almost persuaded by who's choice? Wasn't it God's?

I added the words to show what was being spoken of. You obivously thought it was God's work that makes them believe whereas the passage in context says that if we want to do the works of God,

You added words again right here in bold. We can't do the works of God because we aren't God. Neither could have the Pharasee's who asked this question of Christ. We are to preoccupied with sin to do God's work before Salvation. Not to mention we aren't used of God until we are HIS. In order for man to do God's work the Spirit has to enter him and do it for him. Man simply is not God which is why man cannot save himself. Which is why God doesn't speak through sinners or do work through them. God only does this through his servants. Use sinners to bring about certain things to fulfill His purpose? Yes, but God uses them because He knows what they will do, not because he does it for them. It is God who gives the increase.

we would believe on Christ. Obviously, you arent "buying" that nor the MANY other places where people ask what they must do to be saved and the answer comes back "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." Am I understanding you right -- that you don't have to believe? you just have to not resist?

skypair

I never said that at all. Please do not place words in my mouth. Man must believe but it is God who gives man the faith that saves not of man himself. Everytime that question was asked it was answered correctly by the Apostles. When that Jailer asked Paul he had already been listening to Paul's preaching. He was already convinced by Paul and only wanting confirmation of that fact. He had been persuaded even though that may not have been his intention. Jailers need to know what's going on and what the conversation is about. He was a passive observer who was convinced convicted and saved by God's word comming from Paul's mouth.
He was persuaded by God it wasn't His decision to be.

No one with out knowledge goes to church to be saved. Everyone really listening to the word is passive in there listening because, they don't know the truth yet. They are persuaded by the minister who is used by God to preach the gospel. That goes for all of them, Calvinist included.
MB

 

[skypair]

Salvation doesn't run over anyone but in a passive state we can receive it like receiving an impression from a description someone has given you.

This is what I would call "knowledge." You "get the picture" without having yet analyzed it. Is this what you call (I'm being careful not to put words in your mouth ) "receiving" Christ?

King Aggrippa for instance;
Paul asked him;
Act 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
How could a man be persuaded? Only by the images placed in his mind by Paul. Aggripa almost believes but rejects it for darkness. His only choice because it was God's choice to persuade him which is why Paul preached to him. It was God that was doing the persuasion. Aggripa was almost persuaded by who's choice? Wasn't it God's?

Well, sure. But don't you believe that God tries to persuade everyone who ever lived, Rom 1:19-20, John 1:9?

Here's the words that Paul spoke regarding his preaching and becoming a Christian: "But shewed first ... that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" 26:20. Does that sound passive to you? Yet that was Paul's "prescription" for salvation as he presented it here. That was Paul's "invitation" to Agrippa to become a Christian.

When that Jailer asked Paul he had already been listening to Paul's preaching. He was already convinced by Paul and only wanting confirmation of that fact.

So it was a "rhetorical question" "what must I do to be saved?" I fear lest I have merely pushed you farther into your own mindset on salvation. The jailer was just like those Pharisees, MB -- just asking a cimple question, "What must we do." Same one that 3000 asked on Pentecost, Acts 2:37. All these examples show "conviction" and the will within themselves to do whatever necessary to receive the "gift" of faith and salvation and regeneration (which in the case of those at Pentecost, Peter said they would need to repent and be baptized "and ye SHALL receive the Holy Ghost.")

But if you are just here to justify salvation in your own way, I guess I will have to leave you with that.

skypair

 

[MB]

This is what I would call "knowledge." You "get the picture" without having yet analyzed it. Is this what you call (I'm being careful not to put words in your mouth ) "receiving" Christ?

Well, sure. But don't you believe that God tries to persuade everyone who ever lived, Rom 1:19-20, John 1:9?

Yes of course but most won't even come to the light they have decided that the light will show them up for who they are. Evil men.

Here's the words that Paul spoke regarding his preaching and becoming a Christian: "But shewed first ... that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" 26:20. Does that sound passive to you? Yet that was Paul's "prescription" for salvation as he presented it here. That was Paul's "invitation" to Agrippa to become a Christian.

It sounds like the impression I was speaking about in my last post. It's this idea that man must be convinced of throughly and is the idea Agrippa was almost convinced of. What we are convinced of is the product of the one doing the convincing not the one being convinced. When a man repents and turns to God it's always because he is convinced and convicted. Being convinced is agreeing with what you are convinced of. If you have to decide to agree then that descision is the result of doubt and you aren't fully convinced. If you decide to have faith then faith isn't a gift. If you decide to be saved then Salvation isn't a gift nor can you by any means prove that it is. Decision means you did something to save your self and that is being your own co-redeemer. You know that Salvation is all of God and the words says so. Paul said so. Eph 2:8-9, Rom 9:16, Rom 11:6. Claiming you do anything for Salvation is a works for Salvation claim.

Bottom line is when you can prove you can be your own co-redeemer and Salvation still be all of God. Then I will take my hat off and bow to your view. I don't mean that in a smart way because if what I have said here is wrong be a good brother and show me the truth.

So it was a "rhetorical question" "what must I do to be saved?" I fear lest I have merely pushed you farther into your own mindset on salvation. The jailer was just like those Pharisees, MB -- just asking a cimple question, "What must we do." Same one that 3000 asked on Pentecost, Acts 2:37. All these examples show "conviction" and the will within themselves to do whatever necessary to receive the "gift" of faith and salvation and regeneration (which in the case of those at Pentecost, Peter said they would need to repent and be baptized "and ye SHALL receive the Holy Ghost.")

Please re-read what is underlined. To do what ever is necessary, is works for Salvation. You are talking about being a co-redeemer. Helping God out with your own Salvation. How can that be all of God?
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

But if you are just here to justify salvation in your own way, I guess I will have to leave you with that.

skypair

I can't justify myself and neither can you. God is who justifies. If you want agreement then prove to me with scripture that you can do something to improve your chances for Salvation. Disprove that Salvation is all of God.
MB

 

[skypair]

First, MB...

... let me direct you to the "Decisional Salvation" thread already in progress :laugh: for more of my thoughts. But as regarding this topic and your specific interest --

What we are convinced of is the product of the one doing the convincing not the one being convinced.

It's not always the product of the one doing the convincing. Agrippa wasn't convinced yet Paul and the Spirit were trying to convince him. Paul and the Spirit weren't holding back to the "almost convincing gospel" when they preached to Agrippa, were they?

I suppose if you were preaching to a roomful of blondes you could make that blanket statement that you do :laugh: but otherwise, whether or not the "one being convinced" is actually being convinced is in his (or her) hands!

Being convinced is agreeing with what you are convinced of.

Here's a related exercise for you ... you confess your sins, don't you? What is confession, first and foremost? It is agreeing with God regarding sin. Do you not have to decide whether your acts were sinful or not before you confessed them? Or did you just confess guilt for every sin you came across in the Bible whether you did them or not? What would be the point? Even God isn't saying you did every sin, was He? He only convicts you and convinces you of sins you actually did, right?

If you decide to be saved then Salvation isn't a gift nor can you by any means prove that it is.

Is "saved" comes along with "reconcilation," then salvation can still be a gift though it was relationship with God that one was choosing.

You know that Salvation is all of God and the words says so. Paul said so. Eph 2:8-9, Rom 9:16, Rom 11:6.[/quote] Or so the INTERPRETATION goes, anyway. Rom 4:5 diallows 2 of those interpretations right off the bat (Eph 2:8-9 and Rom 11:6). "BELIEF" is NOT "works."

Two things about Rom 9:16: 1) The interpretation is in the realm of Judaism (Moses and Pharoah are the objects). 2) Be careful when interpretting the word "mercy." It often refers to temporal mercy and not to eternal grace. In this case, it is easily seen that Paul is talking about God showing mercy to Israel and hardening Pharoah.

skypair