Salvations Probationary State

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

HP: This verse informs us of the state of probation we presently find ourselves. Neither the punishment of the sinner, nor the reward of eternal life is consummated until we stand before Him in judgment. In this present world the sinner holds the hope of eternal damnation, while we hold and entertain the hope of eternal life, IF we hold fast our profession until the end in willing obedience to His Word.

Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

 

[J. Jump]

hope of eternal life

Where are you getting this? Eternal life is not a hope, it is a certainty.

This verse informs us of the state of probation we presently find ourselves.

The Bible doesn't treat this life as a state of probation when it comes to eternity. Either you are saved or you are not. There is no middle ground. It's black or white.

However Christians are viewed to be in a probationary state as it relates to the coming kingdom of Christ, because we can either qualify or be disqualified from ruling and reigning with Him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Scripture is the source JJ. We are saved by faith, not absolute knowledge. Yes we can know that we are saved, but our knowledge is by faith. Faith must contain at least some element of uncertainty of possibility of deception to be faith. Faith cannot operate where absolute knowledge exists. God has not so designed our assurance of salvation by faith to exist without the need to examine actions to see if in fact we are of the faith we say and believe we are. Faith will not turn to sight until we hear Him say, "Well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the joys that I have prepared you!" Now we enter in by faith. Then, subsequent to the judgment, that faith will be consummated and turned to sight.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Back to scripture, it is not faith that saves, but God's grace: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[J. Jump]

Well HP you go on hoping that you are going to find eternal life. I will continue to trust the absolute certainty of Scripture which says that once we are saved eternal life is an absolute guarantee.

The idea that one has to leave room for doubt and deception amongst faith is outrageous. The whole idea behind faith is that there is no doubt, but you are putting 100% faith in what Christ has done for you.

Doubt means you don't believe that Christ's works are sufficient or that God is big enough and powerful enough to keep His promises. That's not faith, that's doubt.

 

[pinoybaptist]

hey

Back to scripture, it is not faith that saves, but God's grace: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

will just be lurking around. I like your avatar. may I use it in one of my sites ? thanks to yes, and thanks to no, too.

peace.:flower:

 

[BobRyan]

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

HP: This verse informs us of the state of probation we presently find ourselves. Neither the punishment of the sinner, nor the reward of eternal life is consummated until we stand before Him in judgment. In this present world the sinner holds the hope of eternal damnation, while we hold and entertain the hope of eternal life, IF we hold fast our profession until the end in willing obedience to His Word.

Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Well said HP!

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 8:16 we find that the "Spirit bears witness with our Spirit" that we are the children of God. We can know in this life that we are born again - saved and accepted by God.

But we can not know the future as in "will I continue to persevere 10 years from today".

If you reject the bible doctrine on Perseverance as the 4 point Calvinists do then you can "claim salvation anyway" and risk being among those that "Chrsit denies" in 2Tim2 and that have their "forgiveness revoked" as we see in Matt 18 AND in Ezek 18.

I prefer to stick with the Bible teaching on assurance AND the Bible teaching on perseverance.

Others like to imagine that "being denied by Christ" and having "forgiveness revoked" and "being cast out of the vine of Christ, withered-dead and burned in the fire" are all "descriptions of the saved walk".

My imagination does not work that hard.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with HP that we aRE saved by faith and we walk by faith but as 1John 5 says and as Roman 8:16 says there is such a thing as KNOWING that you are saved.

And as 2Tim 2 points out - and as Matt 18 points out there is NOT such a thing as "tricking God" once you are saved. IF you turn back again - you will enter the "forgiveness revoked" state once again!

So "there" is a case where what you KNOW today is not all of what God knows about you and the future! But to DENY the salvation REALLY had by that person TODAY is to deny the Gospel "new birth" simply because it is later shown that the person "fails to persevere" ten years from today.

And the illogical argument that to "fail to persevere" is to never have been saved is fully debunked by the fact that IF they were never saved THEY never had anything TO PERSEVERE IN so there is no such thing as the "TEST" that you are using that is of the form "fail to persevere". By using that circular argument you DENY the Bible teaching on REAL failure to REALLY persevere!!

 

[J. Jump]

I prefer to stick with the Bible teaching on assurance AND the Bible teaching on perseverance.

Then you would have to agree that eternal salvation is based on the work of Jesus Christ alone and not the work of BobRyan, because that's what the Bible CLEARLY states.

Your idea of not knowing if you are going to be saved until you breathe your last breath is so far from the way Scripture lays things out its not even funny.

Others like to imagine that "being denied by Christ" and having "forgiveness revoked" and "being cast out of the vine of Christ, withered-dead and burned in the fire" are all "descriptions of the saved walk".

Well eternally saved folks can experience this things since they are not dealing with eternal matters, so yes it is how some saved folks choose to walk unfortunately.

 

[BobRyan]

Just need to step away from your man-made tradition long enough to show that "denied by Christ" and "removed from the vine of Christ withered dead and tossed into the fire" is the description in the Gospel of "the saved".

 

[Revmitchell]

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Where are you getting this? Eternal life is not a hope, it is a certainty.



The Bible doesn't treat this life as a state of probation when it comes to eternity. Either you are saved or you are not. There is no middle ground. It's black or white.

However Christians are viewed to be in a probationary state as it relates to the coming kingdom of Christ, because we can either qualify or be disqualified from ruling and reigning with Him.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[Jim1999]

I just stumbled upon this thread, and had to draw a deep breath. These are the same people that knock the Church of Rome for its doctrinal inventions, and yet they are guilty of the same thing.

I never heard anything so preposterous in my entire life. It is not only disgusting, but it makes a mockery of my Lord Jesus Christ, who gave us ETERNAL life in His blessed BLOOD and SACRIFICE on the cross at Calvary.

Lord help us.

Cheers,

Jim

Eternally saved in Jesus' name. His word is good for all eternity.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jim 1999: I never heard anything so preposterous in my entire life.

HP: Well now Jim, all I can say is that you have lived a very sheltered life. The notion that the earth was round was just as preposterous to some just a few short years ago.

 

[J. Jump]

Just need to step away from your man-made tradition long enough to show that "denied by Christ" and "removed from the vine of Christ withered dead and tossed into the fire" is the description in the Gospel of "the saved".

I've already done that for you several times, but you just choose to ignore the plain teaching of Scripture to continue in your error. But that's on you.

Rev. Mitchell you have cherry picked quite a few verses, yet none of them speak of eternal life as a hope.

[quote[Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;[/quote]

Not speaking of eternal salvation. If it is then this Scripture is in direct violation of Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 4 & 5, which all say that my works (which would be continuing in the faith) are related to eternal salvation. Therefore you have cherry picked a verse and taken it out of its context to prove a point.

1Ti 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

This says Jesus Christ is our hope not eternal life.

Tit 2:13

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Go back and read the context of the Scripture you plucked and you will find that it is talking about works. Works enters the picture and eternal salvation exits the picture.

1Pe 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Again no mention of eternal life.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Now we actually get to two Scriptures that have eternal life, but there's a couple of problems. Works is the context of the second passage so right of the bat that eliminates it from being eternal life, becuase eternal life doesn't come from our works it comes from the gift of God.

The second problem the word used is aionios, which means age-lasting not eternal. What happened is the KJV translators did not go back to the original langauge, but translated the word from the Latin Vulgate and the word used in the Latin Vulgate was eternal, but not so in the Greek.

Plus if eternal life is a hope then that means there is no security of the believer, becuase a hope is something that may or may not happen, that's why we hope. We hope it does, but it may not.

Now does that sound like the promise of God? No. Eternal life is a guarantee not a hope.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Plus if eternal life is a hope then that means there is no security of the believer, because a hope is something that may or may not happen, that's why we hope. We hope it does, but it may not.

Now does that sound like the promise of God? No. Eternal life is a guarantee not a hope.

HP: Oh yes there is security for the believer! As long as we continue in obedience until the end, we have security. The problem is that you seem to desire the security without, or apart from, the condition of obedience.

I for one do believe that salvation is indeed guaranteed. God has guaranteed that IF we will remain faithful until the end, trusting in Him to provide the means for escape from the snares of the enemy, and by faith believe that He will provide the strength to overcome, and that we, in doing so, remain faithful unto the end, that we will endure to the end and our hope, under those conditions, will indeed be guaranteed to become sight.

 

[Hope of Glory]

HP: Oh yes there is security for the believer! As long as we continue in obedience until the end, we have security. The problem is that you seem to desire the security without, or apart from, the condition of obedience.

I for one do believe that salvation is indeed guaranteed. God has guaranteed that IF we will remain faithful until the end, trusting in Him to provide the means for escape from the snares of the enemy, and by faith believe that He will provide the strength to overcome, and that we, in doing so, remain faithful unto the end, that we will endure to the end and our hope, under those conditions, will indeed be guaranteed to become sight.

Then you are depending upon yourself for your salvation, and you're hoping that you're good enough to make it in.

 

[Revmitchell]

I've already done that for you several times, but you just choose to ignore the plain teaching of Scripture to continue in your error. But that's on you.

Rev. Mitchell you have cherry picked quite a few verses, yet none of them speak of eternal life as a hope.



Not speaking of eternal salvation. If it is then this Scripture is in direct violation of Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 4 & 5, which all say that my works (which would be continuing in the faith) are related to eternal salvation. Therefore you have cherry picked a verse and taken it out of its context to prove a point.



This says Jesus Christ is our hope not eternal life.



Go back and read the context of the Scripture you plucked and you will find that it is talking about works. Works enters the picture and eternal salvation exits the picture.



Again no mention of eternal life.



Now we actually get to two Scriptures that have eternal life, but there's a couple of problems. Works is the context of the second passage so right of the bat that eliminates it from being eternal life, becuase eternal life doesn't come from our works it comes from the gift of God.

The second problem the word used is aionios, which means age-lasting not eternal. What happened is the KJV translators did not go back to the original langauge, but translated the word from the Latin Vulgate and the word used in the Latin Vulgate was eternal, but not so in the Greek.

Plus if eternal life is a hope then that means there is no security of the believer, becuase a hope is something that may or may not happen, that's why we hope. We hope it does, but it may not.

Now does that sound like the promise of God? No. Eternal life is a guarantee not a hope.

They all speak of eternal life and you are under the impression that the word hope has to indicate some amount of doubt. But the word "hope" used here does not indicate doubt but it does indicate a sure anticipation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HOG: Then you are depending upon yourself for your salvation, and you're hoping that you're good enough to make it in.

HP: I am depending on the mercy of God for my salvation, with the full realization that I must exercise my will in obedience unto the end just as God commands me to. I am in the process of working out my own salvation with fear and trembling as Scripture commands of me. I have not seen my name in the Lamb’s book of life but by faith I believe it is and will be in the end. I do indeed trust that I might be found worthy to suffer shame for the name of Christ and that I might be found to have an Advocate, called by the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to argue my case before God the Father in the day of judgment yet to come. That is my hope!

Tell us of your hope HOG.

 

[J. Jump]

They all speak of eternal life

How can you say that when contextually I have shown you that eternal life is not being discussed?

and you are under the impression that the word hope has to indicate some amount of doubt.

I'm not under any impression, that's what the word means. The Holy Spirit didn't just willy nilly pick words. He guided men to write exactly what He wanted them to write. And when He chose the word hope it was for a reason and hope means that something may happen, but there is a chance it may not happen.

Sorry, but eternal life that comes from the promise of God is not a hope. It is a certainty, because God can not lie. It's a promise not a hope!

But the word "hope" used here does not indicate doubt but it does indicate a sure anticipation.

No you are assigning your own defintions to words. Let's just let the Bible say what the Bible says and shape our understandings to it instead of making it say something it doesn't because we are uncomfortable with what it really says.