SAVED even if you don't reject 1Cor 12 and 1cor 14?

[BobRyan]

DHK said -
Each one does not have a revelation. Paul wasn’t saying that. You have taken that verse, that rebuke, out of its context and are making it say something that Paul never intended it to say. You make Scripture contradict Scripture. All do not have a revelation. Paul makes that very plain. Some may have a revelation; not all. That is unscriptural. All never had a revelation. That is clear from this passage. You have deliberately twisted the Word of God. Beware:

I notice that when your argument from fact is lacking and your ability to spin the facts is growing difficult you simply say "beware" - what is that about DHK??


[/quote]

In Post 35 I stated

1Cor 14 (NASB)
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

THE NON DHK version then continues --


31 For you can all prophesy one by one[/b], so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the [b]spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.



New International Version (NIV)

23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understandcomes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all,
25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
Orderly Worship

26</SPAN>What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

23If, therefore, the whole assembly may come together, to the same place, and all may speak with tongues, and there may come in unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24and if all may prophecy, and any one may come in, an unbeliever or unlearned, he is convicted by all, he is discerned by all,
25and so the secrets of his heart become manifest, and so having fallen upon [his] face, he will bow before God, declaring that God really is among you.
26What then is it, brethren? whenever ye may come together, each of you hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation? let all things be for building up;

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together, and all are speaking in [other] languages, and people who are uninformed or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
24 But if all are prophesying, and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all.
25 The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall down on his face and worship God, proclaiming, "God is really among you."
Order in Church Meetings

26 How is it then, brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, [another] language, or an interpretation. All things must be done for edification.


Darby Translation (DARBY)
23 suppose therefore the whole assembly come together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and simple [persons] enter in, or unbelievers, will not they say ye are mad?
24But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple [person] come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all;
25the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon [his] face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you.
26What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each [of you] has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification.


Whether you take the NASB model that “EACH ONE” has these gifts or the some of the other translations indicating that EACH one has at least one of the gifts to SHARE in public – either way this shows NO restriction against ANYONE having at least one of the gifts to share!!

When reading that last sentence above the reader will instantly recognize the point that you keep ducking DHK.

More pointedly the fact that EVERYONE in the 1Cor 14 group had either "a teaching, a tongue or a revelation" means that your strained argument of the form "NO WOMEN in Corinth could have had the spiritual gift for teaching, or tongues or prophecy" dies right then and there -- and is abundantly obvious to the objective unbiased reader.

Why do you think that you can get around that obvious point with posts leaning in the direction of "beware..beware..beware"??

What is that all about DHK?

Are you arguing that when the facts of scripture fail your argument - you can still resort to other means??

Why not go to some argument/point where you have more support from scripture instead? Isn't that a better more noble method DHK?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK quoting 1Cor 12 Quote:
In verse 28 Paul gives a list of all the spiritual gifts, or at least most of them. Then in verses 29 and 30, he asks a number of rhetorical questions all of which have the same answer.
Are all apostles--NO
Are all prophets--NO
Are all teachers--NO
Are all workers of miracles--NO
Have all the gifts of healing--NO
Do all speak with tongues--NO
Do all interpret--NO

Not everyone has a revelation Bob.

BobRyan mistakenly thinking DHK was bending a quote from 1Cor 14...


As has already been pointed out sir - you have given a false translation.

The real ones have been posted.


1Cor 14 (NASB)
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.



New International Version (NIV)

23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understandcomes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all,
25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
Orderly Worship

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

23If, therefore, the whole assembly may come together, to the same place, and all may speak with tongues, and there may come in unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24and if all may prophecy, and any one may come in, an unbeliever or unlearned, he is convicted by all, he is discerned by all,
25and so the secrets of his heart become manifest, and so having fallen upon [his] face, he will bow before God, declaring that God really is among you.
26What then is it, brethren? whenever ye may come together, each of you hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation? let all things be for building up;
...

As I have pointed out "repeatedly" on this thread so far - I mistook DHK's loose rendering of 1Cor 12 as an attempt to abuse the text of 1Cor 14. I then GAVE the actual 1Cor 14 examples from valid known accepted translations.

But clearly (as I have stated repeatedly) I mistook that loose rendering of DHK as a reference to 1Cor 14 when in fact he was referring to 1Cor 12.

Though this has been pointed out repeatedly - DHK you seem to delight in pretending that there is something else here?

What is up with that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

As I have pointed out "repeatedly" on this thread so far - I mistook DHK's loose rendering of 1Cor 12 as an attempt to abuse the text of 1Cor 14. I then GAVE the actual 1Cor 14 examples from valid known accepted translations.

What we have here, Bob, is a blatant lie.
The truth, as any reader can see, is that I have repeatedly quoted and/or referred to 1Cor.12:28-30. You have not repeatedly mistook any kind of rendering of at all. You have ignored it altogether, avoided it like the plague. I have set the verses in front of you, and you kept on referrring to other passages instead. I have sarcastically brought you back asking if you knew the difference between a 12 and 14, but still you went to 1Cor.14 instead of 1Cor.12:28-30. There was no mistake here. There still isn't. You continue to avoid my explanation of the passage to this present moment. You still don't get the point to this very minute.
You have called in your defence the KJV a false translation.
Your debate tactics are disgusting.

But clearly (as I have stated repeatedly) I mistook that loose rendering of DHK as a reference to 1Cor 14 when in fact he was referring to 1Cor 12.

And where, except in this post have you "repeatedly" stated this.
I quoted the KJV, copying and pasting it word for word. Yet you call it "that loose rendering of DHK" I didn't write the KJV. And it isn't a loose rendering. Why don't you pay attention to what is being posted!!

 

[DHK]

I notice that when your argument from fact is lacking and your ability to spin the facts is growing difficult you simply say "beware" - what is that about DHK??

It is about your inability to answer simple questions about Scripture passages given you like 1Cor.12:28-30 which totally defeats your assertion. Go back and count all the times I have asked you if you can differentiate between a "chapter 12 and a chapter 14?" Go back and see how many times you have ignored me, and posted some irrelevant passage in 1Cor.14 instead. You deliberately evade pertinent passages of Scripture because they defeat your position.

When reading that last sentence above the reader will instantly recognize the point that you keep ducking DHK.

More pointedly the fact that EVERYONE in the 1Cor 14 group had either "a teaching, a tongue or a revelation" means that your strained argument of the form "NO WOMEN in Corinth could have had the spiritual gift for teaching, or tongues or prophecy" dies right then and there -- and is abundantly obvious to the objective unbiased reader.

Why do you think that you can get around that obvious point with posts leaning in the direction of "beware..beware..beware"??

What is that all about DHK?

Are you arguing that when the facts of scripture fail your argument - you can still resort to other means??

Why not go to some argument/point where you have more support from scripture instead? Isn't that a better more noble method DHK?

First, quoting a plethora of MV's and attacking the KJV will get you no brownie points on this board.

Let's go back to the Scripture that you continue to harp on and see once and for all how you have taken it out of context, and made it contradict other Scripture. Keep in mind that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

This is the Scripture in question:
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
---Note that the verse is a rebuke even stated with some degree of sarcasm. The latter part of the verse bears this out. Let all things be done unto edifying. But all things weren't done to edifying. These believers were coming in and causing total confusion in the church, and nothing was edifying. There was only chaos and confusion. They were acting as if they all had a doctrine, a tongue, and revelation; but in reality they didn't. It just looked that way. Both English grammar and Greek grammar bears this out. Let me give you an example.

An enthusiastic song leader said in a recent service: All right, Every one has a testimony to give; every one has a favorite song to choose; everyone has a Scripture to quote. After the next song be ready to give your testimonies, your favorite songs or quote your Scripture. There is no one in that congregation that thought that they would have to do all three. The obvious interpretation is that "every one" would have at least one of the three things mentioned, and no one would have all of them (though that was a remote possibility). The song leader was just asking for one of the three from each of the members who would volunteer. When Paul was saying: "each of you..." It meant that among you all each of you has at least one of these gifts mentioned, and that no one has all three. Study the Greek. It doesn't mean that all people had a revelation. It is not the meaning. Scripture doesn't contradict Scripture! You have deliberately been avoiding 1Cor.12:28-30 because it destroys your theory.
Here it is:

1 Corinthians 12:28-30 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Paul first gives a list of the spiritual gifts that are given to the church in verse 28. Note also that they are given in order of importance. (Firstly, secondly, thirdly, after that, then, etc.)

In verses 29 and 30 he asks a series of rhetorical questions which all have the same answer--NO!
Are all apostles--NO
Are all prophets--NO
Are all teachers--NO
Are all workers of miracles--NO
Have all the gifts of healing--NO
Do all speak in tongues--NO
Do all interpret--NO

Do all have a psalm, a doctrine, a revelation NO! If they did, it would contradict 1Cor.12:28-30. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Not all have a revelation or the gift of revelation (word of knowledge or revelatory knowledge)--1Cor.13:8. Of that particular gift we are told it would come to an end. It did at the end of the first century, thus making Ellen White a false prophet. The Bible doesn't contradict itself; only your view of the Bible contradicts itself. Not everyone has the gift of prophecy or the gift of revelations. You claim (and your cult requires you to claim that Ellen G. White had both), but there is no evidence that she had either.

Now, I hope you can follow the Scripture quoted this time. I hope you can see what 1Cor.12:28-30 says and won't go off on a rant saying that it is a false translation. That is the lowest form of debate.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
As I have pointed out "repeatedly" on this thread so far - I mistook DHK's loose rendering of 1Cor 12 as an attempt to abuse the text of 1Cor 14. I then GAVE the actual 1Cor 14 examples from valid known accepted translations.
What we have here, Bob, is a blatant lie.
The truth, as any reader can see, is that I have repeatedly quoted and/or referred to 1Cor.12:28-30. You have not repeatedly mistook any kind of rendering of at all. You have ignored it altogether, avoided it like the plague. I have set the verses in front of you, and you kept on referrring to other passages instead. I have sarcastically brought you back asking if you knew the difference between a 12 and 14, but still you went to 1Cor.14 instead of 1Cor.12:28-30. There was no mistake here. There still isn't. You continue to avoid my explanation of the passage to this present moment. You still don't get the point to this very minute.
You have called in your defence the KJV a false translation.
Your debate tactics are disgusting. [/quote]

That is a good example of your either not reading the posts at all or simply posting pure imagination.

What I said was -

Originally Posted by BobRyan
As I have pointed out "repeatedly" on this thread so far - I mistook DHK's loose rendering of 1Cor 12 as an attempt to abuse the text of 1Cor 14. I then GAVE the actual 1Cor 14 examples from valid known accepted translations.

As each of my 1Cor 14 quotes show - I AM giving the text. Period.

As stated above in your quote of 1Cor 12 (and this is not a reference to the version quoted) I simply took this as an attempt to misdirect away from your problem in 1Cor14 -- in fact I thought you were referencing 1Cor 14 in a very "non-prescise" way. Later I realized you were actually referring to 1Cor 12 and have repeatedly stated that.

You simply "pound the pulpit louder" when these inconvenient facts are brought back.

How is that working for you??

And then when I do go to 1Cor 12 and SHOW that your problem is NOT SOLVED by your argument that "all Christians on the planet do not get the gift of prophec" (because your argument rests on "NO WOMAN on the planet ever gets the gift of prophecy after the cross") you simply pound the pulpit again and rant about "the KJV" as if this is solving your problem.

But as the objective unbiased reader can easily see My argument is not against the KJV. So how is this helping you at all DHK??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In verses 29 and 30 he asks a series of rhetorical questions which all have the same answer--NO!
Are all apostles--NO
Are all prophets--NO
Are all teachers--NO
Are all workers of miracles--NO
Have all the gifts of healing--NO
Do all speak in tongues--NO
Do all interpret--NO

Do all have a psalm, a doctrine, a revelation NO! If they did, it would contradict 1Cor.12:28-30

Do you have quote from me saying that "EVERY Christian on the planet has the gift of prophecy" DHK?

Because you keep making this point AS IF that is my argument!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This is the Scripture in question:
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
---Note that the verse is a rebuke

There is no rebuke in that observation -- rather Paul says that given that ALL have Spiritual gifts -- that when the come together they should be sharing them in orderly fashion. Paul is NOT complaining that the Holy Spirit has given too many people spiritual gifts OR that the Holy Spirit has given the wRONG people spiritual gifts NOR is Paul arguing against the GIFTS but rather against the disorder that takes place when sharing them.

Your attempt to spin the text has failed in this case - as it did every time you tried this DHK? What part of this are you not getting? I thought this point was clear by now.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

QuoteHK
Here is Post #63
Finally you at least quote the passage and attempt to answer the point that I made. The trouble is, Bob: You have tunnel vision. You miss the mark. Why did I quote this passage? Read it again. It shows plainly that not all have the gifts. Not all have a revelation. Not all speak in tongues.


indeed - but that is not the salient point of my argument AND it is not what your argument needs to survive the complete debunking it gets in both 1Cor 12, 1Cor 14 and Acts 21:9 and in the Gospels AND in the O.T.





Question in post 80 being ignored still --



Quote:
DHK
This goes directly contrary to what you have been ranting throughout this thread where you think Paul said “All has a revelation.”


My argument was from 1Cor14 and was specific to the church at Corinth where PAUL SAYS "EACH one has a tongue or revelation or teaching" and you argue that NO WOMEN could have these speaking gifts given by God for church assemblies.

Clearly your argumen died then and there DHK.

Many Christians in almost every denomination (even yours DHK) would differ with you on this DHK. Are they all denied salvation in your view?

 

[BobRyan]

Question in post 76 being ignored still --

QuoteHK
Thus if they were to desire to prophecy, it was in the first century not in the 20th or 21st century.


There are a number of Christian denoninations that would differ with you on that DHK since nothing in 1Cor 13 talks about "the Bible not being complete" or "Gifts only until the Bible is completed" --

are they all going to hell or is this just another example of "differences" in the body of Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

Questions in Post 77 being ignored still --

Originally Posted by DHK
In Post #68 you say:
“Not only is the sense of 1Cor 12 that each of these gifts ARE given -- but there is no "And THIS set of gifts can never be given to a woman".

in fact Paul argues for equality in 1Cor 12 so that the selection is not based on "gender" it is the will and purpose of the Holy Spirit giving out each gift to any family, any gender any age that He so chooses. He does not reference ANY restriction at all about "not being allowed to give gifts beyond HELPS to women"

You fail to look at the list carefully Bob.
How many female Apostles were there? That was the first in the list. The answer—NONE.
How many female Teachers were there? NONE!

How many women are teaching in children's classes in women's classes and yes some even in mixed adult classes with BOTH men AND WOMEN in all denominations all across the planet?

And are ALL THESE Christians not going to heaven DHK?

And yes WE SEE no women apostles in Acts. We could argue that he first century READER might have said "hmm I see no women apostles so MAYBE the H.S means to restrict this one gift".. But we DO see women TEACHING Apollos! They DID see that women were ordained by God as Bible-blessed judges of Israel!

And they WOULD have been saying tothemselves "today we DO SEE women Prophets" -- so the idea that the first century reader would be READING 1Cor 12 saying "and of course there is no such thing as women prophets" is totally bogus.

Many Christian churches see that clearly -- in many Christian denominations --

Are they TOO not going to heaven DHK?

DHK when you are SHOWN the prophetic gifts to "EACH ONE" in 1Cor14 and to Philip's daughters and to Elizabeth, and Mary and Miriam and Anna and Deborah and...

Your response is invariably the the CONTEXT for the 1Cor 12 reader would be such that they would say

DHK "How many female Prophets were there? NONE!

When almost every Christian group on the planet differs with you on that point - do you then argue that they must all be denied heaven??

 

[DQuixote]

Shhhhhhhhhhh .. everybody .. Shhhhhhhhhhh.........

I have a suggestion.

Multiply all the words in this thread by $1 and send that amount to children deprived of adequate food and clothing, lungs choked with coal dust, right here in the good ole' USA. When you arrive at the number, post it, and we'll ask everyone to match it, either as individuals, or as a church, or whatever. Looking forward to the amount!

:thumbs:
Here's an example (just one) of the situation there:

Harlin County is one of the most severely depressed counties in Kentucky. The estimated population is 36,000, with 13,000 living in poverty. Unemployment and poverty rates are 150 percent more than the U.S. average. Forty-nine percent of those enrolled in high school do not graduate. In the 50-county area of the Appalachian Ministry, 51,097 households have an annual income of less than $10,000 with 48 percent of those incomes less than $5,000 a year. It is almost unbelievable that 16,691 housing units have no well or public or private water source; 25,885 households do not have vehicles; and 26,116 cannot afford a telephone. The absence of transportation and the physical isolation create serious accessibility problems for health care and emergency situations. The rural resident must pay 30 percent more for their food because of inaccessible large supermarkets. The old coal camp houses are almost 100 years old and are inadequately insulated and dangerous because of faulty wiring. Sagging floors, leaking roofs, peeling paint, and rotting clapboards are common. The fight for survival has left many exhausted, bitter, and hopeless.

--------NAMB, SBC (North American Mission Board, Southern Baptist Convention)

How about everyone who views this, including all of you who don't post, getting together with your church to send $$$$$ to the NAMB specifically designated for the Appalachian region? Without identifying yourself, how about posting the amount that you collect and forward to the BB?

 

[BobRyan]

Post 24 emphasizes the obvious point that I do not argue that "ALL Christians" on the planet have to have the gift of prophecy for my argument to stand --

1Cor 14
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.


31 For you can all prophesy one by one[/b], so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the [b]spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

My argument does not require that everyone show up for church every Sabbath and prophesy. My argument is fully sustained even if everyone takes turns one Sabbath at a time - and only ONE gives a revelation on any given Sabbath because the result is STILL that EVERYONE had a revelation.

...

BUT DHK's objection not only goes to MANY revelations on at one assembly AT the same time - he objects EVEN if only ONE is given on a given day ...because in DHK's model NO WOMEN can HAVE what God gave Philip's daughters

My argument is sustained as soon as "the everyone" that qualifies and that is supposed "to desire earnestly spiritual gifts - especially that you may prophesy" includes women!

DHKs fails if women are included -- even if it is only "some women".

So the question remains - is this where DHK condemns all Christian denominations that differ with him here. Must they all be denied salvation DHK?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The question from post 39 still waiting for an answer

1 Cor 14
27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
However in 1Cor 14 - the issue is NOT spiritual gifts for women or even their SHARING those gifts in church - the issue is about a Q+A session taking place between some of the women and "others" (others who may or may not be women in this context for Paul is not specific) - Paul simply argues that a disruptive Q&A session NOT be taking place when all are assembled.


...
First of all you must admit that yours is largely a "dark ages view of women no matter WHAT scripture says to the contrary" model for Christians no matter WHAT denomination we are talking about.

However that is not my main point here - what I am asking you to do is come up to the tiny-tiny level of objectivity where you ADMIT that those who do NOT share your dark-ages view of scripture and women here include Baptist AS WELL as Adventists and almost every known Christian denomination on the planet!!

Do you have AT LEAST that level of objectivity left sir??

...
I can't imagine that you would not know THAT MOST Christian denominations flatly reject your false view the Gospel when it comes to women!

HOW then can you possible select THIS example of your own unique and peculiar difference with the REST of Christendom as the THING that separates Adventists from the vast majority of Christians that DO hold to the SAME model for women as SDAs do???

The question of whether DHK condemns all Christian churches that differ with him on this topic -- remains unnanswered "still".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The question from post 39 still waiting for an answer



The question of whether DHK condemns all Christian churches that differ with him on this topic -- remains unnanswered "still".

in Christ,

Bob

Is this a matter of show and arrogance for you Bob. I have condemned no one. I have given my view on Scripture which is very plain and straightforward. Giving teaching on Scripture is not condemnation. I never brought salvation into this discussion. You did. I have repeatedly said that the teaching regarding women keeping silent in the church; under the authority of men in the church; not teachers of men in the church; learning in silence in the church; are church matters given by Paul to Timothy as instruction to the believers in the local churches. Obviously it has nothing to do with salvation. It is and always has been a matter of obedience.

Your problem is your culture and your pride (and your refusal to rightly divide the Word of truth.) This has nothing to do with other churches of other denominations, but since you brought them up I will give you an answer. One of your problems is that you are trying to impose your western cultural and unbiblical manners into the Bible. Let me remind you: there were no Sunday Schools then; no women ministries then; none of those things. The church met as one open gathering. There wasn't even a nursery for babies. You must try to put yourself in their setting.

I am a missionary and travel to mid-eastern countries where things have to changed much. Women sit on one side with their children, and all the women wear a head covering. The men sit on the other side (often on mats placed on the ground). There is no women that would dare speak out in the church. They have no say. If they would, or if their family would get our of order in any way, their husband would come immediately and settle the dispute or even take them out of the service no matter how far away he would be sitting. There is reverence for the Word of God. There is no walking around. The people sit quietly and attentively when the Word of God is preached. They sing enthusiastically. There is joy in their hearts. No women would ever usurp the headship of the house, and no women would ever speak out in the service.
Today the gifts of prophecy, tongues, (revelatory) knowledge, and other such gifts have ceased. The church doesn't see such outbursts. There is quiet worship and instruction from God's Word. Everything is done decently and in order. It is unfortunate that you try to impose unbiblical theology and western culture to try to prop up the doctrines that come from a women that founded a cult.

In this nation that I am referring to, it is the general custom of the Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Brethern, and many others to worship in the same general manner. Women keep silent in the church. Now Bob, are you condemning the way most of the Christians in the world worship. There are far more Christians in third world nations than there are in the Western world.

 

[Eric B]

In fairness to Bob, the issue of "salvation" stemmed from the earlier thread, when you first called the SDA a "cult", and the major reason given was that their prophet was a woman. (You basically repeat this, again, above). Cults are generally seen as "unsaved". So the way Bob attacks this, in his roundabout way, is to accuse you of denying salvation to all Christians who disagree with your position on women in Church.
Perhaps you shouldn't have thrown the woman issue in there in the first place, as it was basically OT, not even the SDA's biggest error, and now has sidetracked the whole discussion (and spun off this thread).

Though it is true that the Church was originally very different, and more home oriented. Men had authority over women, because they were the heads of home. The Church as some corporation and a power base, with paid, professional officers (which is what makes it seem like "discrimination" to us, to exclude women) came much later, basically, with the Roman system.

 

[BobRyan]

In fairness to Bob, the issue of "salvation" stemmed from the earlier thread, when you first called the SDA a "cult", and one of the reasons given was that their prophet was a woman. (You basically repeat this, again, above). Cults are generally seen as "unsaved". So the way Bob attacks this, in his roundabout way, is to accuse you of denying salvation to all Christians who disagree with your position on women in Church.
Perhaps you shouldn't have thrown the woman issue in there in the first place, as it was basically OT, and now has sidetracked the whole discussion (and spun off this thread).[/quoe]

This is a good summary but you are missing another key point.

Not only is DHK lumping in the issue of "women being silent" with "SDAs can't be saved -- they let women speak".

He appears to draw a "saved line" in the area of God not being allowed to give spiritual gifts like prophecy to women.

He appears to draw a "saved line" in the area of spiritual gifts like prophecy not allowed for men OR women after the first century.

I have given DHK chance after chance to say "no I am not drawing a saved-not-saved line there" when it comes to "women having to keep silent"... "Women getting spiritual gifts like prophecy"... "gifts like prophecy valid after the first century"

But DHK does not seem to want to take that reasonable step until Post #94 here - but I have been asking about it from almost page 1.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Is this a matter of show and arrogance for you Bob. I have condemned no one.

This is the part where I quote you as saying that "no one can be saved" that believes these things.

More...

I have given my view on Scripture which is very plain and straightforward. Giving teaching on Scripture is not condemnation.

I agree that that is the right way to do it DHK. But in this case you did make this a matter of salvation instead of just having it as a discussion about differing views on spiritual gifts.

DHK
In this nation that I am referring to, it is the general custom of the Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Brethern, and many others to worship in the same general manner. Women keep silent in the church. Now Bob, are you condemning the way most of the Christians in the world worship. There are far more Christians in third world nations than there are in the Western world.

I am not arguing that "Those who keep silent can not be saved".

I am also not arguing "those who don't prophesy can't be saved".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Reference Post #4 on THIS thread - which links to another thread.

DHK
Heresy #5--Ellen White as a Prophetess and Inspired Commentator
WHAT DOES SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISM BELIEVE ABOUT ELLEN WHITE?

1. Adventism believes Ellen White exercised the divine gift of prophecy

....

I do not believe you can believe such doctrines and be saved at the same time.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1037834&postcount=49

The idea is now being suggested that I am the one that is linking salvation (or the lack thereof) with various views on the validity of prophecy -- and also the validity of women speaking - as a savlation issue.

How can this accusation against me be true when the START is the one shown above as referenced on PAGE 1 of this thread??

In fact what I have done in this case is dedicate an entire thread to just ONE of the items on DHK's list to see if indeed we can view THAT point as one that causes saints to lose salvation - or prevents them from being saved. (Hint: See the title of this thread?)


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

In fairness to Bob, the issue of "salvation" stemmed from the earlier thread, when you first called the SDA a "cult", and the major reason given was that their prophet was a woman. (You basically repeat this, again, above). Cults are generally seen as "unsaved". So the way Bob attacks this, in his roundabout way, is to accuse you of denying salvation to all Christians who disagree with your position on women in Church.
Perhaps you shouldn't have thrown the woman issue in there in the first place, as it was basically OT, not even the SDA's biggest error, and now has sidetracked the whole discussion (and spun off this thread).

Though it is true that the Church was originally very different, and more home oriented. Men had authority over women, because they were the heads of home. The Church as some corporation and a power base, with paid, professional officers (which is what makes it seem like "discrimination" to us, to exclude women) came much later, basically, with the Roman system.

The thread you referred to was about cults and their charateristics. It only took four or five posts before someone mentioned SDA's and J.W.'s in the same post (and it wasn't me.) Another senior poster (also moderator) claimed that the SDA's were a cult. I continued to observe the thread and the offence that that post created. Finally I backed it up, agreeing with it. But I did so with evidence.
And I have made the exact same statement many times before, just in other contexts. For example:
I do not believe that one can believe and understand all that the Catholic Churches and fully understand the gospel, and at the same time be saved. In other words you can't be a devout Catholic and a believer at the same time. I don't believe that Bob has trouble with that statement.

I say the same about the Mormons, J.W.'s and the SDA's without reservation. Am I being hypocritical? No, I am being consistent. I proceeded to list the SDA doctrine that goes contrary to the Bible that would put in the realm of a cult--doctrine that denies the atonement, doctrine that puts into the realm of a works based salvation, and doctrine (historically based) that puts their founder as a false prophet, a wolf in sheep's clothing. The last point is what led to a discussion on the validity of the spiritual gifts for today. Even if they were today, if but one prophecy failed a prophet would be stoned by OT standards. She would have been stoned. Like Benny Hinn of today, many of her so-called prophecies failed. The SDA movement is a cult. I make no apologies for that statement. I make not apology for the statement that one cannot believe all that the SDA teaches and be a Christian at the same time.

Bob is trying to link that to the Biblical doctrine of spiritual gifts, prophecy, and other things like women keeping silent in the church. That is very deceitful and unethical. It is unethical and wrong for him to connect the spiritual gifts to salvation. I said no such thing. I said one cannot believe the doctrines of the SDA and not be a Christian at the same time.
What Bob is doing is this. As I have said one cannot believe all the Catholic doctrine and still be a Christian at the same time--Therefore since the Catholics believe the trinity all who believe the trinity must not be saved. This is Bob's logic. I did not say anything about one doctrine of the Catholic Church.
I never said anything about one doctrine about the SDA, that is, the doctrine of prophecy in relation to salvation. I did in relation to Ellen G. White, just as I would in relation to Benny Hinn. Things need to be put into context.

 

[DHK]

Not only is DHK lumping in the issue of "women being silent" with "SDAs can't be saved -- they let women speak".

I would appreciate it if you would not post lies on the BB, Bob. I never said any such thing. Is this type of thing your strong point in debate?

He appears to draw a "saved line" in the area of God not being allowed to give spiritual gifts like prophecy to women.

Another lie Bob. I explained myself very clearly that all the Scripture I posted relating to women in the church was related to obedience and not to salvation. Why are you posting lies.

He appears to draw a "saved line" in the area of spiritual gifts like prophecy not allowed for men OR women after the first century.

Another lie Bob. Your credibility is sinking fast. You make statements instead of quotes. This is not much of a debate when all you can do is slander a person. If you don't know my position after 9 pages on one thread and all the pages in this thread, I feel sorry for you.

I have given DHK chance after chance to say "no I am not drawing a saved-not-saved line there" when it comes to "women having to keep silent"... "Women getting spiritual gifts like prophecy"... "gifts like prophecy valid after the first century"

You have given me a chance? What are you talking about? :laugh:
Did you put a gun to my head? Is that the chance?
What kind of threat do you give me that gave me a chance? What are you talking about? I stated my view, and you are unable to refute. Those are the facts. And the result is evident--a post full of lies and misrepresentations.

But DHK does not seem to want to take that reasonable step until Post #94 here - but I have been asking about it from almost page 1.

Bob, I have answered all your questions. Your problem--you won't accept my answers!!