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SAVED even if you don't reject 1Cor 12 and 1cor 14?

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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
DHK

DHK
Heresy #5--Ellen White as a Prophetess and Inspired Commentator
WHAT DOES SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISM BELIEVE ABOUT ELLEN WHITE?

1. Adventism believes Ellen White exercised the divine gift of prophecy

....

I do not believe you can believe such doctrines and be saved at the same time.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...4&postcount=49

In the OP it was noted that -- From the same thread above DHK adds (of his own free will)

DHK
DHK said --



1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It seems that you believe only those Scriptures which are convenient to your cult. Why not believe them all?


Now we have post 99 on this thread.

DHK
Bob is trying to link that to the Biblical doctrine of spiritual gifts, prophecy, and other things like women keeping silent in the church. That is very deceitful and unethical. It is unethical and wrong for him to connect the spiritual gifts to salvation. I said no such thing. I said one cannot believe the doctrines of the SDA and not be a Christian at the same time.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1046879&postcount=99

And then of course from post 94 on this thread -

Is this a matter of show and arrogance for you Bob. I have condemned no one. I have given my view on Scripture which is very plain and straightforward. Giving teaching on Scripture is not condemnation. I never brought salvation into this discussion. You did


DHK - please show how your recent turn around posted here can possibly be reconciled to the statemets you made on this topic above..

Bascially though you keep preferencing each of your statements with "Bob the deceitful liar" or "cult member" etc -- it still amounts to a lot of pounding of the pulpit and then blaming me for seeing positions that you are taking. What kind of logic is that???

in Christ,

Bob
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
BobRyan said:
In the OP it was noted that -- From the same thread above DHK adds (of his own free will)






DHK - please show how your recent turn around posted here can possibly be reconciled to the statemets you made on this topic above..

in Christ,

Bob
Bob, please understand that the word doctrines (of the SDA) is a plural word.
The gift of prophecy is a singular doctrine.
How can one doctrine of the SDA convict the entire movement of being a cult? It is possible in some cases. But that is not what I said. I said that no one can believe the doctrines of the SDA (undersanding them all, and at the same time understand the gospel and still be possible. The same is true with Catholicism.
The Catholics believe in the trinity. The Pentecostals believe in the gift of prophecy, as well as some Baptists. Does either condemn them to Hell? Of course not. Do all the collective doctrines of the Catholic Church make the Catholic a false religion? Yes. Do all the collective doctrines of the SDA make it a cult? The answer is an unequivocal yes!!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
here is an insightful set of responses from DHK on the page 10 of this thread post #100

DHK
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Not only is DHK lumping in the issue of "women being silent" with "SDAs can't be saved -- they let women speak".
I would appreciate it if you would not post lies on the BB, Bob. I never said any such thing. Is this type of thing your strong point in debate?

Quote:Bob said
He appears to draw a "saved line" in the area of God not being allowed to give spiritual gifts like prophecy to women.
Another lie Bob. I explained myself very clearly that all the Scripture I posted relating to women in the church was related to obedience and not to salvation. Why are you posting lies.

Quote:Bob sai
He appears to draw a "saved line" in the area of spiritual gifts like prophecy not allowed for men OR women after the first century.
Another lie Bob. Your credibility is sinking fast. You make statements instead of quotes. This is not much of a debate when all you can do is slander a person. If you don't know my position after 9 pages on one thread and all the pages in this thread, I feel sorry for you.

In that set of responses DHK appears to be saying that not having women be silenced in church is not a salvation issue.

Believing in the continuation of spiritual gifts is not a salvation issue.

Believing that WOMEN can have that same continuation of spiritual gifts including prophecy is not a salvation issue (oh yes - and "bob is a liar" if he claims that DHK ever said such a thing... wouldn't want to forget that part)

yet as I have shown in the previous post - the positions posted from DHK on this point seem to fall on both sides of that fence.

In the last post above given by you DHK -- you seem to say that although these doctrinal views are NOT salvation issues when believed by non-SDAs they ARE when believed by SDAs because SDAs also believe OTHER doctrines that you do not agree with -- and those other doctrines are what make them a cult??

Are you sure you want to go with that logic??

If so - how can you claim that this subject is NOT a salvation issue (as believed by SDA's) and how can you claim that it is dishonest of me to ask how it is that they causes SDAs not to be saved but all other Christian groups that believe the same thing -- it does not.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
BobRyan said:
here is an insightful set of responses from DHK on the page 10 of this thread post #100

In that set of responses DHK appears to be saying that not having women be silenced in church is not a salvation issue.

Believing in the continuation of spiritual gifts is not a salvation issue.

Believing that WOMEN can have that same continuation of spiritual gifts including prophecy is not a salvation issue (oh yes - and "bob is a liar" if he claims that DHK ever said such a thing... wouldn't want to forget that part)

yet as I have shown in the previous post - the positions posted from DHK on this point seem to fall on both sides of that fence
Bob you have brought the issue of salvation into this conversation. I did not. So everytime you make one of these wild accusations you make a false accusation, innuendo, something that will eventually get you suspended. I request that you stop. I have said repeatedly that the matter of women disobeying the commands of Scripture concerning silence and the other related commands of Scripture are directly to obedience and not to salvation. For you to go on in this vein will only lead to your suspension. That is a fair warning.

I don't expect anything else to be said about this matter again.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
We still have to be careful even creating a limit to the number of suposedly wrong doctrines before a person or group is "unsaved". I would say it is certain doctrines that deny the Gospel or who God is that would count, and even then, we have to be truthful as to whether it really denies the Gospel.

Heresy #1--Redefining the grace of salvation to include the works of the law

Heresy #2--Sabbath-Keeping

Heresy #3--Soul Sleep

Heresy #4--Annihilation of the Wicked

Heresy #5--Ellen White as a Prophetess and Inspired Commentator

Heresy #6--Investigative Judgment

Heresy #7--Misuse of the Mosaic Law

#1, 2 and 7 involve a dispute as to which laws we are to keep, and I have certainly been battling Bob, and some others in the past on that. But just because you do not believe we need to keep those laws does not mean that a person is denying salvation by faith just because he believes they are mandatory. Just think if you ran across a Christian who believed adultery was OK. You would probably deny he was saved, but then he could accuse you of "Redefining the grace of salvation to include the works of the law". You would respond that that was different; the Bible clearly condemns adultery. If a person has "faith", he would not do that. But then the sabbatarian believes the same thing about the sabbath. Those are but two separate commands of the same Law. The difference is in which laws we believe are still in effect. The SDA's as much as they argue with us, at least grant us the benefit of the doubt and say we are still saved, and won't have the mark of the Beast until the issue is made more clear. I reject that too, but I cannot say it is a denial of the Gospel.
The old-line IFB type fundamentalists, on the other hand, have a bunch of rules that are the same way.

You (DHK), for instance, have argued against contemporary music, with God accepting only traditional music, particularly in Church; which is one of their key doctrines of "separation". Now you do not claim that a person who listens to rock is "unsaved"; but just "disobedient". But that's exactly what the SDA's say about not keeping the sabbath. But which issue, as a matter of "obedience" can you actually find in the Bible? (This could never be answered in the old music debates!)

On the other hand, the music doctrine, rather then being biblical, is also ultimately tied in with cultural superiority, though most are unaware, or refuse to see it. And let's not forget how racism was more openly advocated int he past by "conservative Christians", and many still hold onto it in different ways. Many argue that America was a Christian nation ruined by all the "godless", "immoral", "multicultural", "liberal", etc. (in other words; everyone else's sins but theirs) in recent generations. Others are KJVO, with one claiming "All truth is English truth". Then other old rules in the past, such as meticulous skirt and hair measurements, total beard and mustache bans (as to not look like the "godless" or something like that). Yet most of our apologists have never condemned them like that. No, they are looked up to as the "standard" modern Christians, society and "the cults" have fallen from, and should return to!

However, all of these doctrines chipping away at the core of the Gospel, and pointing to some form of self-righteousness, and self-exaltation; often in the name of the works of the Law. Yet the same people will condemn the sabbatarians for "denying the Gospel of Grace in favor of the works of the Law". But at least the sabbath was actually apart of the Law! That means there is more scriptural support in the Bible for the sabbath than for any of those doctrines.
So the SDA's, if you want to stack up wrong doctrines, are far less worse than some of the very circle of Christians who define the "orthodoxy" they are judged by!

#2 and 3 are at best debatable. Those do not change the Gospel of how one may be saved, or who God is. But since they remove some of the fear element, that is why they are non-negotiable to fundamentalists. Even people like Billy Graham, who do not teach annihilation, but claim the fire may be symbolic of some other pain are railed against by old-liners are having denied the faith. "How can we win souls without being able to scare them with Hell?" But that is not what the Gospel depends on.
#2 in particular can be argued as what necessitates a Resurrection, while the standard view of spirits/souls floating straight to Heaven or Hell, being raised out millennia later, and then judged, then then sent back to where they were, renders the Resurrection redundant. It basically leads to the common cartoon image of Heaven or Hell as the person being judged at Peter's gate immediately, and then taking an escalator or elevator up or down to your destination.

So to judge the SDA's as unsaved on that one, again, is ridiculous, particularly considering all of the less-biblical or completely unbiblical doctrines many so-called "orthodox" or "fundamentalists" believe.

#5 and 6 I say are ridiculous doctrines that have no biblical basis, and many SDA's probably don't even dwell on them. But again, with all of the other fluff believed under the banner of "orthodox Protestatantism"; I don't see how those can be salvation issues either.

One aspect of #1 touches upon the OSAS debate (the so-called "saved by faith, but not without works", and "perseverance" arguments), and that would be the closest to denying salvation by faith, but even then, there are many others, including right here who agree with that. (But because they keep Sunday and believe in the immortal soul, they get over). That doctrine we may see as implying a denial of salvation by faith, but you can argue that it is simply ceasing to believe that revokes salvation, and it would not be based on works.

The Catholic doctrines can be seen as explicitly denying salvation by faith, as well as making other gods out of inanimate objects and dead saints; and they even appeal to extrabiblical sources to justify all of this. So there is a better case with them. But since they believe in the Trinity, Sunday, and the immortal soul, some, such as our leading apologists have even gone soft on them. SDA's get an appendix in Kingdom of the Cults, where their "culthood" is fairly weighed; and in other books, are considered, full blown, one of the "four major cults". But all of these books left out the RCC. (It is mostly the findamentalists who have been consistent in condemning them, and Hanegraaf has now stepped up separate literature on them where the old CRI under Martin did not).
JW's and Mormons change who Jesus is, as well as flatly denying salvation by faith. So there is no dispute on them.

But for the SDA's, I would agree with CRI's balanced assessment of them.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Eric B said:
We still have to be careful even creating a limit to the number of suposedly wrong doctrines before a person or group is "unsaved". I would say it is certain doctrines that deny the Gospel or who God is that would count, and even then, we have to be truthful as to whether it really denies the Gospel.
Our standard is the Word of God. If a movement does not measure up to the Word of God it becomes aberrant in its theology and if it continues down that road it becomes heretical. Putting too much emphasis on any one doctrine eventually becomes a heresy. For example the Oneness Pentecostal put so much emphasis on tongues that eventually they made it a requirement for salvation, thus salvation became works base instead of faith based.
#5 and 6 I say are ridiculous doctrines that have no biblical basis, and many SDA's probably don't even dwell on them. But again, with all of the other fluff believed under the banner of "orthodox Protestatantism"; I don't see how those can be salvation issues either.
They don't dwell on them because they are the two doctrines that damn them the most. They are the two doctrines out of all of them that put them into the realm of a cult. They give Ellen G. White the position of an inspired prophetess, that is, an authority other than the Bible alone. This is no different than the Mormons relying on the Book of Mormon; the J.W.'s relying on Charles Taze Russel or Watchtower publications; the Catholics relying on their catechism, Oral Tradition, and the Magesterium; and even the followers of Jim Jones relying on his words. They all have a leader other than the Bible. It is characteristic of a cult to do so. Whereas a true believer has the Bible as their only authority in all matters of faith and practice.

#6, you need to examine carefully. Of course they don't want to examine that in public. It denies the full atonement of Christ. In effect Christ is still making an atonement for our sins in heaven. His work on the cross was never finished. Any doctrine that attacks the work of Christ automatically puts it in the realm of cult. It was agreed upon in an earlier thread that any belief that doctrine that attacks the person of Christ, such as the trinity or the deity would put that movement into the realm of a cult. This doctrine does the same thing. It attacks the very work that Christ did on the cross. It attacks the atonement.
For more information on the SDA's see:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s18.html
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Re Post 105, Eric B --

A good effort to be fair and Christian.
Yet I feel uneasy. I don't trust you, Eric B! Have I seen you take your stand on any one 'doctrine' squarely? I cannot recall.
About the Sabbath. "Who is not with us, is against us." It's familiar; and applies to any pivotal doctrine of the Christian Faith. If you are not for the Sabbath 100% like Jesus was, you're against it 100% like antichrist is. To be for the Sabbath like the Jews are - because of the Law - is to be against the Sabbath on a Christian basis solely. The SDAs have not discovered the Christian Sabbath; in fact, they reject it knowingly. The Sabbath class the SDAs under 'cult', therefore.
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
"... the full atonement of Christ. In effect Christ is still making an atonement for our sins in heaven. His work on the cross was never finished." DHK on SDA-tism.

GE:

Yes. What Jesus should have finished 'on the cross', they say He is still doing 'in heaven' -- to atone for sin.

But we who reject their view, how do we understand Christ's 'finished' atonement? Because Jesus did not, finish atonement / reconciliation / redemption / forgiveness, 'on the cross'! That is Roman Catholic heresy! They end right where the Jews end : with "the life in the blood", in other words, in death.

But, says John Owen, "the death of death in the death of Christ"! What is that, "the death of death"? It is LIFE in the resurrection of Christ "FROM THE DEAD"! Jesus completed, finished, atonement / salvation / reconciliation / forgiveness, in OFFERING, his LIFE, and in His LIFE, OFFERING, his blood, for the forgiveness of sin through, and in, and with, and by, and for, having RISEN from the dead. This is where Atonement was ended: Where LIFE - New Life - had begun.

We must never leave it unsaid! Because without Jesus' resurrection the Gospel is NOT proclaimed, but hushed.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
We must never leave it unsaid! Because without Jesus' resurrection the Gospel is NOT proclaimed, but hushed.
I am not referring to the resurrection. John 19:30: "It is finished." The work of salvation was finished at that point in time. There was nothing that man could do. Jesus paid it all. As the song writer put it:

Jesus paid it all;
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain.
He washed it white as snow.

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The resurrection proclaims His victory over sin and death. That is true. Without the resurrection there would be no gospel. But the sin was paid with the blood of Christ. Keeping all of that in mind here is what the SDA's believe on that essental doctrine of the Christian faith:
1. In October 1844, Jesus Christ entered the heavenly holy of holies to begin investigative judgment of the records (deeds, thoughts, attitudes, etc.) of those who have professed salvation. "Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man—to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits ... in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work. ... The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. ... The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God ... every individual has a soul to save or to loose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God ... The intercession of Christ in man’s behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 422-423).

2. The investigative judgment is based on the law of God (the Ten Commandments); the character of each person will be tested by the standard of this law. "Every man’s work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, are all chronicled by the recording angel. The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. ... Those who in the judgment are ‘accounted worthy’ will have a part in the resurrection of the just. ... Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God’s remembrance. ... All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. ... Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God" (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, pp. 424-425, 428).
file:///C:/FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/Ency/ency0068.htm
And that is only a part of this heretical doctrine. It has other implications as well.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
DHK said:
Our standard is the Word of God. If a movement does not measure up to the Word of God it becomes aberrant in its theology and if it continues down that road it becomes heretical. Putting too much emphasis on any one doctrine eventually becomes a heresy. For example the Oneness Pentecostal put so much emphasis on tongues that eventually they made it a requirement for salvation, thus salvation became works base instead of faith based. They don't dwell on them because they are the two doctrines that damn them the most. They are the two doctrines out of all of them that put them into the realm of a cult. They give Ellen G. White the position of an inspired prophetess, that is, an authority other than the Bible alone. This is no different than the Mormons relying on the Book of Mormon; the J.W.'s relying on Charles Taze Russel or Watchtower publications; the Catholics relying on their catechism, Oral Tradition, and the Magesterium; and even the followers of Jim Jones relying on his words. They all have a leader other than the Bible. It is characteristic of a cult to do so. Whereas a true believer has the Bible as their only authority in all matters of faith and practice.
My point was, the same can be said about so-called "orthodox evangelicalism", or "fundamentalism" or IFBism, or whatever you ascribe to. They have their "tradition" as well, though they don't call it that --as much. Let alone "our godly heritage", particular Christian preachers of the past, etc. Most everyone claims their standard is the Word of God, but they can still be in error on it. If any of your beliefs turn out to not be the right interpretation of the Word of God, then you will have condemned yourself.
#6, you need to examine carefully. Of course they don't want to examine that in public. It denies the full atonement of Christ. In effect Christ is still making an atonement for our sins in heaven. His work on the cross was never finished. Any doctrine that attacks the work of Christ automatically puts it in the realm of cult. It was agreed upon in an earlier thread that any belief that doctrine that attacks the person of Christ, such as the trinity or the deity would put that movement into the realm of a cult. This doctrine does the same thing. It attacks the very work that Christ did on the cross. It attacks the atonement.
For more information on the SDA's see:

[URL="http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s18.html"]http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s18.html[/URL]
Well, I can't defend that one. But still, you're claiming it denies the Work of Christ because He is still making some atonement in Heaven. But this, from what I understand, is not to deny "it is finished", but is some sort of spiritual action, conjured up just to save their "1844" date significance. That is a bad doctrine with a bad reason for being, but I still think it is a bit too much to claim they are a cult or unsaved. "Cult" basically is more of an exclusive group (such those who claim only they are saved, and that one must observe all their unbiblical rules to be saved). Some IFB's almost fall into that line of thinking.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Re Post 105, Eric B --

A good effort to be fair and Christian.
Yet I feel uneasy. I don't trust you, Eric B! Have I seen you take your stand on any one 'doctrine' squarely? I cannot recall.
About the Sabbath. "Who is not with us, is against us." It's familiar; and applies to any pivotal doctrine of the Christian Faith. If you are not for the Sabbath 100% like Jesus was, you're against it 100% like antichrist is. To be for the Sabbath like the Jews are - because of the Law - is to be against the Sabbath on a Christian basis solely. The SDAs have not discovered the Christian Sabbath; in fact, they reject it knowingly. The Sabbath class the SDAs under 'cult', therefore.
Well, where are you taking a stand, squarely? You attack me, here (for who knows what reason), and attack the SDA's together, with your peculiar concept of the sabbath that seemingly only you hold.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Eric B said:
#5 and 6 I say are ridiculous doctrines that have no biblical basis, and many SDA's probably don't even dwell on them. But again, with all of the other fluff believed under the banner of "orthodox Protestatantism"; I don't see how those can be salvation issues either.

The point of this thread was/is #5.

I have shown clearly that the issue for that doctrinal position is based on several key points that DHK differs with.

#1. The continuation of spiritual gifts -- yes even prophecy.
#2. The fact that the Bible SHOWS gifts such as prophecy to be given to women even in the NT post-cross.
#3. The fact that churches that do not silence women in church - can still be saved.


While I have provided convincing Bible-based proofs for my position showing DHK to be in error in each case... My point is not to try to convince DHK of his error or anyone who believes like him in this case.

My point is that the salient points are not unique to SDAs. These are the very ponts that(That I have numbered 1-3 above and proven in detail in the pages of this thread) Biblically support the doctrine that DHK challenges in his list (as point #5 of DHK's list) -- and they are not unique to SDAs.

That is beyond dispute to the unbiased objective reader.

This was shown clearly on pages 10 and 11 of this thread - summarizing the page 1 argument.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Eric B said:
My point was, the same can be said about so-called "orthodox evangelicalism", or "fundamentalism" or IFBism, or whatever you ascribe to. They have their "tradition" as well, though they don't call it that --as much. Let alone "our godly heritage", particular Christian preachers of the past, etc. Most everyone claims their standard is the Word of God, but they can still be in error on it. If any of your beliefs turn out to not be the right interpretation of the Word of God, then you will have condemned yourself.

True. However in this case I do not think the Baptist and other Christian groups that DO support the continuation of spiritual are in doctrinal or Biblical error. Nor would I question their salvation in that matter - nor would I question the salvation of those who did not share that doctrinal POV.

I do not think those many Christian groups including Baptists that allow women to speak in church (to be something other than silent) are in doctrinal or biblical error - nor would I question their salvation in that matter.

And clearly that is the point of the thread - as can be seen from the title, page 1, page 10 and page 11 summaries.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
DHK said
6, you need to examine carefully. Of course they don't want to examine that in public. It denies the full atonement of Christ. In effect Christ is still making an atonement for our sins in heaven. His work on the cross was never finished. Any doctrine that attacks the work of Christ automatically puts it in the realm of cult. It was agreed upon in an earlier thread that any belief that doctrine that attacks the person of Christ, such as the trinity or the deity would put that movement into the realm of a cult. This doctrine does the same thing. It attacks the very work that Christ did on the cross. It attacks the atonement.
For more information on the SDA's see:


Eric said
Well, I can't defend that one. But still, you're claiming it denies the Work of Christ because He is still making some atonement in Heaven. But this, from what I understand, is not to deny "it is finished", but is some sort of spiritual action,

In 1John 2:2 we are told that Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (NIV).

This is the work of Christ regarding the atonement that SDAs say was full and complete at the cross.

One thing demonstrated in triplicate here is that DHK is a very unreliable "source" for what I believe or SDAs believe/say in the doctrinal statements of the Church.

This is exactly the antic that Walter Martin hammered Hoekema for practicing on SDAs rather than taking actual positions of the SDA church.

And this is odd that such offbeat efforts would be made given that SDAs DO have beliefs that ARE at odds with one group or another -- with so many valid choices to highlight it is odd indeed that they insist on "making stuff up".

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Heresy #1--Redefining the grace of salvation to include the works of the law

Heresy #2--Sabbath-Keeping

Heresy #3--Soul Sleep

Heresy #4--Annihilation of the Wicked

Heresy #5--Ellen White as a Prophetess and Inspired Commentator

Heresy #6--Investigative Judgment

Heresy #7--Misuse of the Mosaic Law

As for that "list" (and I am not claiming that any group much less SDAs has a doctrine claling for te "misuse of the Law") the argument is that if you differ on any one point (take the Seventh-day Baptists for example who would agree with the Sabbath argument but not on some of the others) this is not enough to disqualify the entire group from being Christian -- but if you differ on enough of the items in the list then whatever group you select can not be Christian.

Let's take this example --
JW's do not believe in the trinity. How many OTHER doctrines do they have to get "wrong" for this to disqualify them from being a Christian group?

What if they agreed with whatever your favorite list is - EXCEPT for this ONE regarding the trinity? -- does this one alone cause a problem or do you need a special combination? IF a combination is needed - what is it?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Another example of this idea of "a test doctrine" idea is that the Mormon's freely state that they have another Bible one that is in fact superior to the real Bible. The question is the same as in the previous post -- is that enough to say that they are not a "true Christian church" or is that ok for most churches to also believe as long as they do not also add too many other doctrines that are untrue in that same way?

In other words - do these doctrines stand on their own as "a test" or is there a certain combination of unpopular yet "acceptable doctrines" that when combined make them "not saved"??

The third example would be a group that is

Arminian,
Believes in the continuation of spiritual gifts
Believes in infant baptism
Amillennial

So they have a combination of beliefs where some group on this board would not agree with any of these in the list. (I myself would differ with them on half the items in that list) Is that "combination" enough?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
BobRyan said:
The point of this thread was/is #5.

I have shown clearly that the issue for that doctrinal position is based on several key points that DHK differs with.

#1. The continuation of spiritual gifts -- yes even prophecy.
#2. The fact that the Bible SHOWS gifts such as prophecy to be given to women even in the NT post-cross.
#3. The fact that churches that do not silence women in church - can still be saved.
You think you have shown these points Bob, but in reality you haven't. Considering point #3, one might conclude it is non sequitor. It has nothing to do with nothing. I never brought salvation into this issue. You did. You keep harping on it. You infer it. I have asked you to stop. And yet you continue? Why? I am at the point of taking all of these voluminous posts that deal with salvation and presenting them to the administrative council. I detest false accusations.

Let me give you an example with another religion.
1. Lutherans believe in infant baptism (I disagree with infant baptism)
2. Lutherans beleve in constubstantiation. (I also disagree with this doctrine)
3. Therefore because I disagree with Lutherans, all Lutherans are not saved.
--Bob, I never said that. And that is precisely your logic. It is flawed, ridiculous, and for you to bring salvation into this conversation simply is a false accusation which needs to be dealt with. In simple terms it is a lie!
While I have provided convincing Bible-based proofs for my position showing DHK to be in error in each case... My point is not to try to convince DHK of his error or anyone who believes like him in this case.
You haven't convinced me and probably no one else. For example, there are not many who are going to accept such flimsy arguments as OT examples of Deborah supposedly having a NT "gift of prophecy" that was given precisely for the edificaton of the NT churches. That is the most laughable defence of your doctrine that you could possible put forward. We don't live under the Judges. We live in the NT age commonly called the Church Age. But that is just one example.
My point is that the salient points are not unique to SDAs. These are the very ponts that(That I have numbered 1-3 above and proven in detail in the pages of this thread) Biblically support the doctrine that DHK challenges in his list (as point #5 of DHK's list) -- and they are not unique to SDAs.
Perhaps some of them pertain to Hinduism and Voodooism too. I haven't checked. The reason being is that the thread was specifically geared to the doctrines of the SDA. If you want me to check the other cults and world religions I can do that for you.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
My point is that the salient points (listed 1-3) are not unique to SDAs. These are the very ponts that(That I have numbered 1-3 above and proven in detail in the pages of this thread) Biblically support the doctrine that DHK challenges in his list (as point #5 of DHK's list) -- and they are not unique to SDAs.

#1. The continuation of spiritual gifts -- yes even prophecy.
#2. The fact that the Bible SHOWS gifts such as prophecy to be given to women even in the NT post-cross.
#3. The fact that churches that do not silence women in church - can still be saved.

DHK
Perhaps some of them pertain to Hinduism and Voodooism too. I haven't checked. The reason being is that the thread was specifically geared to the doctrines of the SDA. If you want me to check the other cults and world religions I can do that for you.

At the time of the writing of this post a number of threads are currently active on page 1 of this section of the message board showing "in triplicate" that these 3 points ARE held by many non-SDA Christian churches today.

your response above is designed to appeal to someone who already agrees with you but I doubt that Christian groups who agree with LINK or Me or Tamborine Lady will view that as a compelling position.

in Christ,

Bob
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Eric B said:
Well, where are you taking a stand, squarely? You attack me, here (for who knows what reason), and attack the SDA's together, with your peculiar concept of the sabbath that seemingly only you hold.

GE:

Not only I. The number is growing day by day. But even were I the only one, it would make no difference, I'll still 'take my stand' on it 'squarely'. How many stood with Luther when he said, Here I stand ...? (Now you will tell me do I think I am Luther? I would still, not mind!)
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
BR:

"What if they agreed with whatever your favorite list is - EXCEPT for this ONE regarding the trinity? -- does this one alone cause a problem or do you need a special combination? IF a combination is needed - what is it?"

GE:

If I may vent my opinion for whatever it might be worth, the answer is, they for this reason only, may not be allowed the title and honoyr of being Christians!
 
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