Scholar Against Women Pastors

[bmerr]

Music,

bmerr here. If you preach in an assembly containing men, then you will do so in violation of the word of God. Those who speak for God are to speak as the oracles of God (1 Pet 4:11), which means that they speak with authority, whether or not they are a "pastor".

God does not "call" people to do anything, least of all to do something contrary to His word. Just because someone has a desire to do something does not mean that "God called them" to do it.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[steaver]

P.S. Regarding whether or not you ought to go back and speak to the "pastor", I would suggest a study of the organization of the NT church, and determine if a congregation with only one pastor, or elder, is in agreement with the NT model.

I have been recently pondering this very thing. Does the scriptures teach that a congregation is to have a single authority ( one Pastor) ? Can there be several pastors, teachers, preachers and all disciples with varying gifts governing as a democracy on issues? Can there be several preachers in the congregation taking turns preaching sermons from week to week? Is a one pastor authority taught in the scriptures?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...

I also believe this means that a bishop must be married and must have children. And it also states "not a novice" as well. I personally would not want to receive counsel from a single young fellow about my marriage or my teenagers. Unless you have a marriage and kids of your own you cannot understand what a family goes through. raying:

God Bless!

 

[Eliyahu]

I have been recently pondering this very thing. Does the scriptures teach that a congregation is to have a single authority ( one Pastor) ? Can there be several pastors, teachers, preachers and all disciples with varying gifts governing as a democracy on issues? Can there be several preachers in the congregation taking turns preaching sermons from week to week? Is a one pastor authority taught in the scriptures?

God Bless!

Mono-Pastoral system is not supported by the Bible.

When Elders or Bishops appear in the Bible, unless they are mentioned for Definition or for the Qualification, they are always plural.

Acts 20:17, Paul called the elders of the Ephesus church ( Plural elders of the singular church)

then mentioned that Holy Spirit made them Overseers ( Bishops) ( Acts 20:28), which implies the Elders are the same as Overseers( Episkope=Bishops).

Phil 1:1 says about Overseers( Episkope) in plural of the Philippian church ( singular)


Monoploy of the Pulpit by MOno-Pastoral system doesn't fit this verse:

1 Cor 14

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Again, I said that Pastor is not an Office of NT, but a Gift of Christ as in Eph 4:7 and 4:11.

There are only 2 Offices in NT churches, Overseers(Episkope= Elders) and Deacon

 

[go2church]

The whole men role, women role is horse manure. It is one (of many) way that men in positions of power maintain their power and influence. If you don't allow a woman to be a pastor then, you should be honest and say it is because of the woman be silent passage, not some cooked up nonsense about women having a different role. They have a different role more because of what society allows then what God allows.

Are the sections of scripture that mention women being silent, or husband of one wife to be understood as instructions to a specific church at a specific time or instructions for all times to all churches? That is the question that must be answered by each believer.

For me it is instruction for a specific church in a specific time. The overall example of Jesus elevating and honoring women within his own ministry at a time when exclusion would have been the accepted and taught as the norm and the later inclusion of women with the ministry at all levels of the apostles are other reasons for believing as I do.

 

[thomas15]

music4Him,

May I humbly suggest that your dispute here is not with baptist doctrine but rather with the clear teaching of the Bible?

No one is saying that there isn't a place for women in the work of the church. There is also a huge difference between sharing your faith and preaching. May i suggest that you re-study the issue for yourself and let God's word teach you rather than yelling at those who disagree with you? Get the Bible's definition of teaching, preaching, pastor, deacon and so forth then study the verses and then make up your mind.

If you then feel so strongly that you have to preach then find a church that will allow you to do so and then be happy. But don't get all excited and mad at those who follow the Word of God on this issue.

Tom

I guess thats the difference between me and some others who are female.
As part of my signature reads...
I'd rather be a wet water walker than a dry pew sitter.

I just can't sit still with knowing what Jesus did for me and keep it to myself. So I will preach. Theres no where that says I can't. I been through this disscussion before and still some have already got their doctrinated minds made up.
If you are a woman and haven't been called by the Lord to preach thats ok. But don't limit others... although I will not pastor a church because this I truley believe is for a male Pastor to do, but I and other Christian females can still have a ministry if the Lord blesses us with one.

So may the Lord bless you and I will let you all get back to your discussion.

 

[steaver]

Mono-Pastoral system is not supported by the Bible.

When Elders or Bishops appear in the Bible, unless they are mentioned for Definition or for the Qualification, they are always plural.

Acts 20:17, Paul called the elders of the Ephesus church ( Plural elders of the singular church)

then mentioned that Holy Spirit made them Overseers ( Bishops) ( Acts 20:28), which implies the Elders are the same as Overseers( Episkope=Bishops).

Phil 1:1 says about Overseers( Episkope) in plural of the Philippian church ( singular)


Monoploy of the Pulpit by MOno-Pastoral system doesn't fit this verse:

1 Cor 14

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Again, I said that Pastor is not an Office of NT, but a Gift of Christ as in Eph 4:7 and 4:11.

There are only 2 Offices in NT churches, Overseers(Episkope= Elders) and Deacon

Unless someone has a rebutal, I am inclined to believe this is so. So where did the one pastor leading a congegation come from that is prevalent in most churches? Is this an adopted Catholic tradition, like a pope? What denominations, if any, do not follow the one pastor tradition?

God Bless!

 

[bmerr]

Unless someone has a rebutal, I am inclined to believe this is so. So where did the one pastor leading a congegation come from that is prevalent in most churches? Is this an adopted Catholic tradition, like a pope? What denominations, if any, do not follow the one pastor tradition?

God Bless!

steaver,

bmerr here. I do not believe a rebuttal is forthcoming, since the Scriptures clearly teach that a congregation is to be overseen by a plurality of elders. It's one of many details about the church that Jesus built that is overlooked, or ignored by the denominational world.

Though not a denomination, churches of Christ are overseen by a plurality of elders, when men who qualify and desire the office are present. In some cases, one or more of them may serve as pulpit minister, but that's usually not the case.

The "one pastor" organization employed by most religious bodies seems to be borrowed from the Roman Caltholic system, which was based, near as I can tell, on the organizational structure of the Roman government.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[JFox1]

Here is another perspective about the role of women in church and how women were treated in Old Testament and New Testament times:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/04/post_21.html#uslPageReturn

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

We have a pastor, assoc. pastor, and asst. pastor. Our pastor usually preaches unless he is away or sick. Then one of our other pastors' or a deacon will preach.

 

[annsni]

Hey - we have 9 pastors - so there's certainly no one pastor at our church! LOL!

 

[Eliyahu]

I attended a big Presbyterian church for about 2 years, which had 30,000 attendants on Sundays, 14 pastors, 91 elders, about 30 assistant pastors. But none of them could speak against the Head Pastor even though there were apparent problems, because all of them were appointed by that Head Pastor.

In such case, I still call it Mono-Pastoral system.

The True churches are led by the Head of the church, which is Jesus Christ Himself. However, sadly in many churches, a human being sits on the seat where Jesus Christ should sit.

I have seldom seen or heard about any churches where the pastors are rebuked or disciplined by the church members for any misconducts as we read Timothy 5:20.

1 Tim 5:
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Mono-Pastoral System or any Pastoral system is linked with Clergy system where Pastors and Laymen, Laywomen are apparently distinguished.

The problem is that it is not what God likes or intended to have for the NT churches.

3 John :

9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.


Diotrephes may be the starter of the Clergy system or the Mono-Pastoral system.


Now let's see what Jesus says:

Revelation 2:

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.


Do you see what Jesus say? Jesus who loves everybody in the world HATES the doctrines of Nicolatanes.

Who are the Nico-laitanes?

When the Bible doesn't explain any more about it, isn't it because the word itself is self-explanatory?

Nico ( from Nicao) - Conquer, Rule over
Lai ( from Laos) common people as we read Luke 8:47 ( all the people)

So, the Nicolaitanes were the Pre-eminent upper class ruling over the common people.


Jesus HATES the doctrines of Nico-laitanes !

 

[Eliyahu]

Is this an adopted Catholic tradition, like a pope? What denominations, if any, do not follow the one pastor tradition?

God Bless!

If you go to so-called Plymouth Brethren, you will find that there is no Pastor, no Priest, but the churches are administered by the multiple elders and deacons.

We don't call ourselves Plymouth Brethren, as Bible prohibits any denomination ( 1 Cor 1:12-17), but the outsiders call us so.

As our Lord instructed, we call each other Brothers and Sisters, and the Pulpit is open to the Brothers in the Lord ( 1 Cor 14)

We believe that thru out the history, there have been such churches following the NT teachings, but mostly RCC maintained the clergy system.

 

[steaver]

Thanks to all. :thumbs: Very imformative. Something always restled within me when I seen Christians just doing as the pastor says as if he is the final authority on matters. I like the church Eliyahu has described and believe that it follows the NT example. Bmmer's sounds good as well but I still don't like the notion of a "pulpit minister". This sounds like it could lead to one man calling the shots.

There are no such churches near my area that do not employ a full time single pastor who is considered final authority. They have boards that are suppose to keep him or her in line but you know how that usualy goes, pastor gets his own way because after all he is God's chosen to lead this flock.

I'm not even sure that employing a pastor is right. I believe Eliyahu's church has the pastor and elder issue correct and should not these men serve without burden as did Paul and work a trade for their keep as well?

I have considered starting such a church in my area because there is none. I have been praying about this for two years or so and believe that God has not let in go from my heart.

Sorry about hyjacking this thread, but thanks for all the info! :wavey:

God Bless!

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

should not these men serve without burden as did Paul and work a trade for their keep as well?

Pastors are on call 24/7. They would not be able to take care of their flock, in this day and age, if they worked a trade.

Also, preparing and preaching three sermons a week is a tough job...

Working an outside job, they would have no time for their family or their extensive prayer time with God.

 

[bmerr]

Bmmer's sounds good as well but I still don't like the notion of a "pulpit minister". This sounds like it could lead to one man calling the shots.

steaver,

bmerr here. I may have given the wrong impression regarding what I termed a "pulpit minister". He's just the guy the elders hire, (after hearing input from the congregation concerning whether they like his "style", and such), having determined that he is sound in the faith, who, apart from illness, or absence, delivers the sermons and lessons. I know of a few instances where the "pulpit minister" was fired by the eldership for teaching false doctrine, or other reasons, so the preacher, though perhaps more visible, is not the one in charge. Ultimately, it's Christ in charge, right?

It's part of the duty of the elders, as well as the rest of the congregation, to make sure what is preached from the pulpit is in accordance with Scripture. Everyone is responsible, but the elders will give an account (Heb 13:17).

There are times, like the present, when we have had no paid preacher. In those times, several of the men of the congregation rotate the preaching/teaching duties. Honestly, I get a lot of benefit from those times, since the one who prepares a lesson often learns more than those to whom it is presented.

The organization of Eliyahu's church sounds like the pattern found in the NT, but I question some of the doctrines they hold.

I'm not even sure that employing a pastor is right. I believe Eliyahu's church has the pastor and elder issue correct and should not these men serve without burden as did Paul and work a trade for their keep as well?

I think the Scriptures support the idea of a paid preacher, though they do not seem to demand it. 1 Cor 9:6-14 ends with, "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

I think there are benefits either way. Having several men share the preaching and teaching gives them more motivation, or cause to study harder in preparation, and lets those who hear them benefit from the knowledge of them all.

On the other hand, having one man who has dedicated his life to the ministry of the word, perhaps having some formal training in the ancient languages and history, etc, and paying him a salary to support his family's needs, allows him more time for study and prayer, not to mention visitation, etc that several men with regular jobs simply don't have.

And don't worry about hijaking the thread. I think the OP has been pretty well covered.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[music4Him]

Music,

bmerr here. If you preach in an assembly containing men, then you will do so in violation of the word of God. Those who speak for God are to speak as the oracles of God (1 Pet 4:11), which means that they speak with authority, whether or not they are a "pastor".

God does not "call" people to do anything, least of all to do something contrary to His word. Just because someone has a desire to do something does not mean that "God called them" to do it.

In Christ,

bmerr

No sir I do not violate, and if look at the Greek in this scripture you will see that it means whosoever.
G1536
εἴ τις
ei tis
i tis
From G1487 and G5100;if any: - he that, if a (-ny) man (‘s thing, from any, ought), whether any, whosoever.

Yes man is mentioned but "if any and whosoever" are mentioned too.
I'm a whosoever! I take no authority except that which has already been given me. If there is a man who is offened then he knows where the door is. (Matt 18:7) Also back with the misconception you are so enthrawled with a "women should be quiet" doctrine you do not hear me. Women can't pastor a church, but they can preach and also serve.

Mark 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I can tell you that two of the best preachers I know are women. And Episcopalians as well ... so I suppose they would get doubly negative marks from many of us on this forum.

I am sure that a little searching on the BaptistBoard will reveal the very good arguments that have been evinced about why it is legitimate and even helpful for women to be pastors. Pastoring has very little to do with the wielding of authority and everything to do with being authoritative, i.e., professional and capable in handling the Scripture, theology, pastoral care, worship leadership, etc.

Hear, hear.

I currently serve under a woman who is the strongest preacher, ablest administrator, and most pastoral individual I have ever met.

I must note that this passion for denigrating, marginalizing, and demonizing female pastors has resulted in the death of a friend of mine. Rev. Nancy Copin, who I once had the privilege to serve with, was murdered in her parsonage in Martinsville, VA. The person arrested for the murder rfecently joined a church where women were said to be an abomination and unqualified to preach.

So keep it up, people. Your view will win in the end by attrition if nothing else.

 

[webdog]

"And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Remind me to say single. I don't want some jerk bossing me around just because he has a Y chromosome.

Another error in translation by the KJV. The Hebrew to english should read "and your desire will that of (be or rule over) your husband, but he will rule over you".

Your statement proves the text :tear:

 

[bmerr]

No sir I do not violate, and if look at the Greek in this scripture you will see that it means whosoever.
G1536
εἴ τις
ei tis
i tis
From G1487 and G5100;if any: - he that, if a (-ny) man (‘s thing, from any, ought), whether any, whosoever.

Yes man is mentioned but "if any and whosoever" are mentioned too.
I'm a whosoever!

music,

bmerr here. I have already stated that the word translated "man" in 1 Tim 3:1 could mean either male or female. I went on to point out that any ambiguity about the matter ends with "the husband of one wife", where "husband" is from

G435
ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.


But you don't want to be an elder, you just want to preach, right?

Let me say that I have no more problem with women preaching than the Bible does.

The problem is not that women do not have the ability to preach. Many do, and you may be one of them. In the right setting, I'm sure this would be a talent well-used.

But the problem lies in authority. 1 Tim 2:12 says that a woman is not to teach, nor have authority over the man, correct? When you preach, you teach, else why bother. If you preach to men, you are teaching men, which, as a woman, you are not Scripturally authorized to do.

If you preach, speaking as the oracles of God (1 Pet 4:11) to men, then you are not only teaching men, but you are teaching men with authority, which is also not authorized for you to do, being a woman.

These are just the facts of the matter. But why is this the case? Why did Paul disallow women from teaching or having authority over men? Was it because Paul was a male chauvanist pig, as I have heard from some? Did Paul hate women? He does not appear to have been married, after all...

Obviously, none of these things are true. Keeping in mind that it was God Who inspired Paul, let's go on in 1 Timothy to see Paul's inspired explanation of why women are restricted from teaching or having authority over men.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

It's God's created order. Simple as that.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Here is what Barnes had to say:

This is the second reason why the woman should occupy a subordinate rank in all things. It is, that in the most important situation in which she was ever placed she had shown that she was not qualified to take the lead. She had evinced a readiness to yield to temptation; a feebleness of resistance; a pliancy of character, which showed that she was not adapted to the situation of headship, and which made it proper that she should ever afterward occupy a subordinate situation. It is not meant here that Adam did not sin, nor even that he was not deceived by the tempter, but that the woman opposed a feebler resistance to the temptation than he would have done, and that the temptation as actually applied to her would have been ineffectual on him. To tempt and seduce him to fall, there were needed all the soft persuasions, the entreaties, and example of his wife.

I don't go along with everything Barnes says, but I think he makes some valid points here.

I take no authority except that which has already been given me.

If it is the case that you teach only other women and children, and men in one-on-one situations, then you are correct.

If there is a man who is offened then he knows where the door is. (Matt 18:7)

Do you realize that you just pronounced woe upon yourself with that verse?

Also back with the misconception you are so enthrawled with a "women should be quiet" doctrine you do not hear me. Women can't pastor a church, but they can preach and also serve.

I have not mentioned that a "woman should be quiet", though the Scriptures do so state. That being the case, it would be hard for a woman to stand in the assembly and preach to the congregation if she were being quiet, don't you think?

The admonitions for women to be quiet were likely neccessary due to some women, possessing gifts of tongues or prophecy, assuming the role of public speaking under the pretense of being inspired.

To my mind, anyone claiming to have been "called" by God to preach, teach, etc, is pretty near to claiming to be inspired, themselves.

In Christ,

bmerr