Tom Butler
New Member
Oops, never mind. Lost my train of thought.
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Scholar Against Women Pastors
- Thread starter JFox1
- Start date
Exactly. Just because they are "excellent" at at does not make it biblically ok.
Many gay guys say that their "male wife" is as perfect at being a wife as any true women out there. So this then makes it "ok"?
There are many women who would make excellent pastors and there are many men who are really bad pastors. This does not change God's Word on the matter. Just as men must not take on "male wives", women must not take on men's roles.
God Bless.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
Where did THAT come from???
Rev. Lowery
New Member
For those that may not read their Bibles here is the scripture dealing with this subject I have used the KJV and Amplified to try and help with the understanding!
1 Timothy 2:8-14 (King James Version)
8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Timothy 2:8-14 (Amplified Bible)
8I desire therefore that in every place men should pray, without anger or quarreling or resentment or doubt [in their minds], lifting up holy hands.
9Also [I desire] that women should adorn themselves modestly and appropriately and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with [elaborate] hair arrangement or gold or pearls or expensive clothing,
10But by doing good deeds (deeds in themselves good and for the good and advantage of those contacted by them), as befits women who profess reverential fear for and devotion to God.
11Let a woman learn in quietness, in entire submissiveness.
12I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to remain in quietness and keep silence [in religious assemblies].
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve;(A)
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression.(B)
I found this article!
http://www.wcg.org/lit/church/ministry/women10.htm#_ftn89 <------ I thought it was worth reading
1 Timothy 2:8-14 (King James Version)
8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Timothy 2:8-14 (Amplified Bible)
8I desire therefore that in every place men should pray, without anger or quarreling or resentment or doubt [in their minds], lifting up holy hands.
9Also [I desire] that women should adorn themselves modestly and appropriately and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with [elaborate] hair arrangement or gold or pearls or expensive clothing,
10But by doing good deeds (deeds in themselves good and for the good and advantage of those contacted by them), as befits women who profess reverential fear for and devotion to God.
11Let a woman learn in quietness, in entire submissiveness.
12I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to remain in quietness and keep silence [in religious assemblies].
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve;(A)
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression.(B)
I found this article!
http://www.wcg.org/lit/church/ministry/women10.htm#_ftn89 <------ I thought it was worth reading
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"Christian" homosexuals declare that their sex life is ok with God because they follow the "one wife" precept of the bible even though that one wife is of the same sex. They justify the sin because it "feels right" and they play the role very well. Same is with many women taking on the role as pastor. They justify the sin because it feels right and they play the role very well. "Who cares what God said about it".
God Bless! :wavey:
Yep I agree! WOMEN should not pastor a church.
But to deny a Christian their right to preach thats a totally different matter. Women can preach "if" they are called by the Lord. Least we forget that some women are missionarys, evangelist, and teachers.
BTW can a pastor put his wife in office as co-pastor. It seem that Aquilla and Priscilla's ministry operated like this.
But to deny a Christian their right to preach thats a totally different matter. Women can preach "if" they are called by the Lord. Least we forget that some women are missionarys, evangelist, and teachers.
BTW can a pastor put his wife in office as co-pastor. It seem that Aquilla and Priscilla's ministry operated like this.
To All,
bmerr here. I have not seen in any of the posts so far the fact that "pastor" is one of the terms used in Scripture for the office of "elder". Other terms are "presbyter", "overseer", and "bishop". Each term highlights an aspect of the office.
As always, we should allow the Bible to speak on the topic, and leave it at that. Let's look to 1 Tim 3.
1 This is a true saying, If a man [uh-oh, there's a snag already] desire the office of a bishop, he [there's another one] desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...
Let's stop there for a moment. First off, the word "man" is kind of generic, and could go either way, as is the case with "he". But from here on, any ambiguity is lost.
Now Massachusettes may pass laws to try and change things, but a woman cannot be the husband of one wife. It just can't be done. This being the case, women cannot be bishops, elders, overseers, presbyters, or pastors, and be in accordance with Scripture.
I would go further and say that women are not to teach or preach to men in the worship assembly. When one preaches or teaches, he is to speak "as the oracles of God" (1 Pet 4:11). When one faithfully speaks God's word, he speaks with authority.
Women are not to be in authority over men (1 Tim 2:12-14). The reason for this is based on Creation. It's simply the order which God intended, illustrated by the fact that Adam was formed first, and then Eve. Eve for Adam, and not Adam for Eve.
This is in no way a denigration of women. My mom is a woman, and I like women so much that I married one. Women are great, and I thank God for faithful, godly women and the example they set. I often make it a point to thank the wife of a preacher for her service to her husband and her help in his work.
We men wouldn't make it very far without women. Women are just not to be in authority over men.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. I have not seen in any of the posts so far the fact that "pastor" is one of the terms used in Scripture for the office of "elder". Other terms are "presbyter", "overseer", and "bishop". Each term highlights an aspect of the office.
As always, we should allow the Bible to speak on the topic, and leave it at that. Let's look to 1 Tim 3.
1 This is a true saying, If a man [uh-oh, there's a snag already] desire the office of a bishop, he [there's another one] desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...
Let's stop there for a moment. First off, the word "man" is kind of generic, and could go either way, as is the case with "he". But from here on, any ambiguity is lost.
Now Massachusettes may pass laws to try and change things, but a woman cannot be the husband of one wife. It just can't be done. This being the case, women cannot be bishops, elders, overseers, presbyters, or pastors, and be in accordance with Scripture.
I would go further and say that women are not to teach or preach to men in the worship assembly. When one preaches or teaches, he is to speak "as the oracles of God" (1 Pet 4:11). When one faithfully speaks God's word, he speaks with authority.
Women are not to be in authority over men (1 Tim 2:12-14). The reason for this is based on Creation. It's simply the order which God intended, illustrated by the fact that Adam was formed first, and then Eve. Eve for Adam, and not Adam for Eve.
This is in no way a denigration of women. My mom is a woman, and I like women so much that I married one. Women are great, and I thank God for faithful, godly women and the example they set. I often make it a point to thank the wife of a preacher for her service to her husband and her help in his work.
We men wouldn't make it very far without women. Women are just not to be in authority over men.
In Christ,
bmerr
Rev. Lowery
New Member
bmerr said:
I AGREE and AMEN!
Bmerr a question for you and anyone else who wishes to answer just pm me so we dont hijack the thread.
Q. If you went to a church and didnt know that the SS teacher was a woman what would you do? Below is a post I made in this thread! I truely didn't know what to do so I did nothing and regret it now. Should I go back and privately speak with the pastor or the pastors wife or both?
Rev. Lowery said:
Rev. Lowery said:
Mr. Lowery,
bmerr here. A few years back when I was a dissatisfied Southern Baptist looking for answers, I visited the Nazarene church that my sister-in-law attended. I sat down for the adult Sunday School, and to my suprise, the teacher was a woman.
At that time, I had not studied the role of women in church very much, but I had read 1 Tim 2:12-14. I knew it was not right for her to be teaching a mixed class, but I said nothing. Though I knew it was wrong, my silence implied consent, and I still regret not voicing my disapproval, or at least not leaving the classroom. Today, I would be compelled to speak out against a woman who stood to teach or preach in the assembly.
Since becoming a member of the church of Christ, this has not been an issue. Though not harped upon, this topic is preached on from time to time, and everyone in the congregation understands, accepts, and seems to be content with the Bible's teaching on the matter.
Sadly, this is not the case in all churches of Christ. As false doctrines creep into the church, with growing ignorance of the Scriptures amongst the "rank and file" resulting in less and less opposition to error, there are some cases of women usurping authority over men, both in teaching/preaching, and even in the leadership of the church.
Sad times, indeed.
In Christ,
bmerr
P.S. Regarding whether or not you ought to go back and speak to the "pastor", I would suggest a study of the organization of the NT church, and determine if a congregation with only one pastor, or elder, is in agreement with the NT model.
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music4Him said:
Aquilla was not a pastor, so his wife was not a co-pastor. I do not believe that a pastor ought to put his wife in such a position (co-pastor) unless it were strictly as an overseer of women's activities, and even then Im not comfortable with the term.
The fact that Aquilla and Priscilla ministered to Paul is not the same as being a pastor. We have older couples in our church who take some of the younger couples under their wing, and minister to them, but they are not taking on the pastoral role. It's different.
music4Him said:
music,
bmerr here. Would it make sense for the Lord to "call" a woman to preach, since to do so would require Him to "call" her to do something contrary to His word? Certainly not.
Women are not only allowed to teach, they are commanded to teach. They are just not allowed to teach men in mixed classes or in the worship assembly, since to do so is to have authority over them.
In the NT, we have the example of Timothy, who was taught by his mother Eunice, and his grandmother Lois. This was likely done in the home throughout his childhood.
Aged women (I'll let the women decide who the aged women are :laugh: ), are commanded to teach the younger women about how to be good wives and mothers (Tit 2:3-5).
And, seemingly contrary to points made thus far, there is even the command for women to teach in the worship assembly. Col 3:16 says,
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
When we sing, we are teaching and admonishing one another. Each person, male or female, teaches the others, whether male or female. The difference is that when we sing, the only one with any rule over the action is the song leader, who simply sets tempo and pitch, and maybe skips verse 4. With this in mind, let's pay attention to the words we sing, lest we teach each other false doctrines which are often found in our songbooks.
I'm not aware of the office of "co-pastor" in the NT. I have heard the expression. In fact, a Baptist friend of mine was just made "co-pastor" of the Baptist church I used to attend. I'm not sure who made the position of "co-pastor" up, but it's not in the Bible.
We must remember that "pastor" is just another word for elder, overseer, bishop, or presbyter. As such, those who would serve as elders (by far the most frequently used term for the office in the NT) must meet certain qualifications, which are given in 1 Tim 3:2-7 and Titus 1:6-9.
One of these qualifications is to be the "husband of one wife". A woman cannot meet this qualification. A woman cannot be an elder, pastor, overseer, bishop, or overseer.
Concerning Aquilla and Priscilla, they are recorded as taking Apollos unto themselves, and teaching him the way of God more perfectly (Acts 18:26). They did not do this in a worship assembly, but privately. It is certainly part of the role of women to teach men and women in the context of a home Bible study. In keeping with the Biblical example of Aquilla and Priscilla, she probably ought to do so with her husband, to avoid any scrutiny.
In Christ,
bmerr
Bmerr,
You sometimes teach very sound doctrines!:thumbs:
Women believers can still find very important roles and contribution for the Lord while they still keep silence inside the church as the Bible teaches us in 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim 2. Men and Women are equal but the roles are different. It is one of the responsibilities for the Elders ( leaders) of the church to help the church members to find the proper gifts and functions for the Lord as we read 2 Tim 1:6 (Stir up the gifts).
Elderly women should teach younger women, Women believers should teach the children, can preach the Gospel to the unbelievers outside the church, can work for the charity ministry, can write about their beliefs as well or even compose the songs too. Women believers are much more suitable for preaching the Gospel to the Muslim women than male preachers are.
I wonder why women are trying to wear the men's clothes ( I hope readers understand what I mean) but find the answer from Genesis 3:16
and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
BTW the title Pastor in Ephesians 4:11 is the translation from Poimen which means Sheperd, not the Office in the church but one of the gifts mentioned in verse 7 ( Gift of Christ). There are only 2 offices in the church which are well explained in 1 Tim 3:1-13 and the qualification of Elder (=Overseer) is mentioned in Titus 1:5-9 as well.
You sometimes teach very sound doctrines!:thumbs:
Women believers can still find very important roles and contribution for the Lord while they still keep silence inside the church as the Bible teaches us in 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim 2. Men and Women are equal but the roles are different. It is one of the responsibilities for the Elders ( leaders) of the church to help the church members to find the proper gifts and functions for the Lord as we read 2 Tim 1:6 (Stir up the gifts).
Elderly women should teach younger women, Women believers should teach the children, can preach the Gospel to the unbelievers outside the church, can work for the charity ministry, can write about their beliefs as well or even compose the songs too. Women believers are much more suitable for preaching the Gospel to the Muslim women than male preachers are.
I wonder why women are trying to wear the men's clothes ( I hope readers understand what I mean) but find the answer from Genesis 3:16
and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
BTW the title Pastor in Ephesians 4:11 is the translation from Poimen which means Sheperd, not the Office in the church but one of the gifts mentioned in verse 7 ( Gift of Christ). There are only 2 offices in the church which are well explained in 1 Tim 3:1-13 and the qualification of Elder (=Overseer) is mentioned in Titus 1:5-9 as well.
I love when people say that not allowing women to be a pastor keeps them from being in ministry. Our church staff is large - over 40 people - and most of the staff is made up of women - but none in a pastoral role. These women are doing awesome jobs in their positions - without being in authority or taking away a man's authority. I love how our pastors say that this church couldn't run without the women - because it's SO true! LOL!!
Women should not be pastors of a church, but they can preach!!!!! This is what amazes me with Baptist doctrine, they see the word "preach" and automatically think of a male person and that a man is the only one allowed to preach.
I also did not say that Aquilla was a pastor nor his wife Priscilla was a co-pastor. (Although Adam said Eve was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone so that would make her a "(co) partner") Also just so you know... I was using the way they worked together in ministering to Apollo NOT Paul.
Act 18:24-26
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
I also did not say that Aquilla was a pastor nor his wife Priscilla was a co-pastor. (Although Adam said Eve was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone so that would make her a "(co) partner") Also just so you know... I was using the way they worked together in ministering to Apollo NOT Paul.
Act 18:24-26
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
My understanding is this.music4Him said:
This doesn't say Priscilla pastored Apollos. Maybe she assisted her husband when he preached the Gospel truth to Apollos. But as I said, it doesn't conflict the Bible if a lady believer preach the Gospel to the outsiders. After the people join the church, then the order of the church must rule it and the women should hand over the role to the elders there in obedience to the Words of God.
mcdirector
Active Member
JFox1 said:
I'm old. I admit it. But in my 27 years of marriage, I've never thought of my husband as a jerk and I never felt bossed around. I guess I read that verse much differently than you do.
I have loved him and even liked him most every day we've been married. He's been my best friend and my biggest supporter in everything I ever wanted, yes wanted - not needed - but wanted, to do. We've had ups and down. We've even shouted and yelled. Being the strong-willed woman that I am, he has gotten more than a few earfuls of how I feel and what I think. AND he has taken everything I've said as counsel.
I would follow him anywhere - well, I think I have, at least across the southern part of the USA. I have cherished the time I have spent with him and dred the day I may be without him. In a marriage based on biblical principles, rule and submission do not mean that some jerk is bossing you around.
Humbly submitted,
Bitsy
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music4Him said:Women should not be pastors of a church, but they can preach!!!!! This is what amazes me with Baptist doctrine, they see the word "preach" and automatically think of a male person and that a man is the only one allowed to preach.
I also did not say that Aquilla was a pastor nor his wife Priscilla was a co-pastor. (Although Adam said Eve was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone so that would make her a "(co) partner") Also just so you know... I was using the way they worked together in ministering to Apollo NOT Paul.
Act 18:24-26
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
I kind of sense that you got a little bent out of shape at my response to you? I thought you were asking a question so I gave my opinion. I misspoke and said "Paul" when it was "Apollos" that they actually ministered to.....we all make mistakes - so not sure why the eye-roll was necessary.
Regardless of which name I used, we cannot compare all ministry, or even all "expounding the way of God" to pastoring or preaching. As shown in the verses you quoted, Apollos was not a pastor at this time, and had not even joined the church yet. If anything, they were witnessing about Christ to him and helping to train a new Christian.
There are going to be times when a woman is involved in teaching alongside her husband. But I think the term "co-pastor" goes too far in attributing some sort of church authority to the lady.
I guess thats the difference between me and some others who are female.
As part of my signature reads...
I'd rather be a wet water walker than a dry pew sitter.
I just can't sit still with knowing what Jesus did for me and keep it to myself. So I will preach. Theres no where that says I can't. I been through this disscussion before and still some have already got their doctrinated minds made up.
If you are a woman and haven't been called by the Lord to preach thats ok. But don't limit others... although I will not pastor a church because this I truley believe is for a male Pastor to do, but I and other Christian females can still have a ministry if the Lord blesses us with one.
So may the Lord bless you and I will let you all get back to your discussion.
As part of my signature reads...
I'd rather be a wet water walker than a dry pew sitter.
I just can't sit still with knowing what Jesus did for me and keep it to myself. So I will preach. Theres no where that says I can't. I been through this disscussion before and still some have already got their doctrinated minds made up.
If you are a woman and haven't been called by the Lord to preach thats ok. But don't limit others... although I will not pastor a church because this I truley believe is for a male Pastor to do, but I and other Christian females can still have a ministry if the Lord blesses us with one.
So may the Lord bless you and I will let you all get back to your discussion.