Scholar Against Women Pastors

[tragic_pizza]

Phebe was not a pastor of a church, she is described as being a servant of the church.

"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also." - Romans 16:1-2​

I am aware the Greek word means deaconess and it was quite probable that she ministered to the poor sisters of the church, but never to teach the men in a pastoral capacity.

Waitwaitwait, so elsewhere in the New Testament, diakonos is translated "minister," and here it isn't? "Diakonos" is even the masculine form of the word! Clearly, to everyone but Fundamentalists, Paul considers Phoebe an equal to the MEN he calls "diakonos."

As to the other, I am sorry for the loss of your friend and I pray for your healing as well as for the others affected by this tragedy. Please be aware, however, that you are adding to the pain of this event by connecting her death to those who preach in favor of the Bible and thus, preach against women pastors. Just because I rail against sodomy does not make me responsible for the Matthew Shepherd killers and just because I rail against female pastors does not make me responsible for the Copin killer. Christians do not promote violent behavior against those with bad doctrines or behaviors and no Christian advocated for this malfeasant to rob and murder this lady because she was holding an office that the Bible states she ought not hold. Violence against this individual would run contrary to fundamental teachings of the Bible and thus, could not be held by a fundamentalist.

Railing against things is a whole lot easier than caring about them. I will not respond to your insult of me, sayin I am adding to the pain of the event. You, when you denigrate women and others who you consider "less" than you, are bringing pain enough.

 

[hillclimber1]

Waitwaitwait, so elsewhere in the New Testament, diakonos is translated "minister," and here it isn't? "Diakonos" is even the masculine form of the word! Clearly, to everyone but Fundamentalists, Paul considers Phoebe an equal to the MEN he calls "diakonos."

Not a single Bible I looked at has that translated anything but servant. But I only have 8 or so. Why do you contest against truth?

You can explain why Paul allowed Phoebe to pastor a church (Romans 16:1-2). If all of the above must aply to women being ordained as pastors, then either Paul is a hypocrite or you are wrong.

Why are you deliberately changing the words of this quote?

 

[tragic_pizza]

I am changing nothing. I am examining the original language of the New Testament.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

tragic_pizza


I think your taking what the Bible is saying about women and adding your own twist to it, God doesn't care what you think a womans place should be.

God and His wisdom gave us the Bible so that we would and can live our lives in a manner pleasing to him. The Bible clearly states in many place's that woman are subordinate to there husbands and in a religious environment woman are subordinate to men in general! <------*subordinate may be to strong of a word*

This doesn't mean anything other than each member has a job and must knows his or her job and when one member tries to do more than what they should thats when things go bad!

I have heard many women say, "Oh, thats just chauvinistic."

I have heard men say, "All those feminist."

But its a combinationof both. Women have been raised in this day and age to believe that they are 100% equal with men and that a woman can do anything a man can and should have the right to do so! Thats fine in the secular world but, God tells us in His word the proper place for everything so there is no confusion!

Woman is not inferior to man but woman is mans help meet, man is not womans help meet! Woman was made from man for man. Man is the head of his wife and Christ is the head of man and God is the head of Christ! No argument needed its clear plain and simple!

If your a woman and you struggle with the fact that God in his word puts you in your place then I would suggest you pray and pray hard about how to over come what ever it is that cause's you to be disobedient!

I do marriage consoling and a lot of couples now a days don't understand their roles and how it relates to a Godly life. Men general say "You hear that I am in charge." I however quickly explain that authority properly used will benefit both and neither will feel belittled or abused. If you, being a man, abuse that authority then you abuse yourself. Your wife is part of you and your a part of your husband you are one flesh!

People general take the Bible the wrong way and thats common but taken in context and with love and a humble heart........HUMBLE <----- Thats the key word.........A lot of young women these days are not humble and don't know how to be or want be. A humble person is truly a strong person!

If I have not been clear or you miss understand please private message me!

Forgive my grammer in some spots!

 

[hillclimber1]

The Bible never condones a woman as the head, or in authority over a man in a pastoral role. I see no problem with a woman teaching men, but the authority that comes with a pastorate is not for the female. God created the woman as a helper for the man. Eve was rather easily deceived by the serpent, and Adam was not, and this difference probably contributes to this tenet.

 

[Rufus_1611]

I am changing nothing. I am examining the original language of the New Testament.

When you get done with the Greek, try examining the English.

Romans 16:1
"...a servant of the church..." - NASB
"...a servant of the church..." - ASV
"...a servant of the assembly..." - Green's Literal Translation
"...a servant of the church..." - NIV
"...a servant of the church..." - HCSB
"...a servant of the church..." - ESV
"...a servant of the church..." - NKJV
"...is in the ministry of the church..." - Duoay-Rheims
"...a special helper in the church..." - Easy to Read Version
"...in the seruyce of the chirche..." - Wycliffe
"...which is a minister of the congregacion..." - Tyndale
"...is a mynister of the congregacion..." - Coverdale
"...is a minister of the Church..." - Bishop's
"...a seruaunt of the Church..." - Geneva
"...a seruant of the Church..." - Authorized Version​

 

[Rufus_1611]

Railing against things is a whole lot easier than caring about them.

I care about them and I care about them enough to alert them (and those who follow them) when they've delved into bad doctrine.

I will not respond to your insult of me, sayin I am adding to the pain of the event.

When I intentionally called you Ms. Pizza to highlight your effeminate worldview, that was an insult and I should not have done it. When I point out that you are adding to the hurt of this situation via connecting people who speak out about a specific doctrine, as somehow being responsible for this woman's death, this is not insulting, it's just reality.

You, when you denigrate women and others who you consider "less" than you, are bringing pain enough.

I do nothing to denigrate women, for I lift up Godly women who understand their role the same as I would Godly men who understand their role. Relative to the office of a pastor I actually am an equal to women for neither they, nor I, qualify for the office.

 

[tragic_pizza]

When you get done with the Greek, try examining the English.

Romans 16:1
"...a servant of the church..." - NASB
"...a servant of the church..." - ASV
"...a servant of the assembly..." - Green's Literal Translation
"...a servant of the church..." - NIV
"...a servant of the church..." - HCSB
"...a servant of the church..." - ESV
"...a servant of the church..." - NKJV
"...is in the ministry of the church..." - Duoay-Rheims
"...a special helper in the church..." - Easy to Read Version
"...in the seruyce of the chirche..." - Wycliffe
"...which is a minister of the congregacion..." - Tyndale
"...is a mynister of the congregacion..." - Coverdale
"...is a minister of the Church..." - Bishop's
"...a seruaunt of the Church..." - Geneva
"...a seruant of the Church..." - Authorized Version​

What language was the New Testament written in?

Answer me that, then we can discuss the English.

 

[tragic_pizza]

The Bible never condones a woman as the head, or in authority over a man in a pastoral role. I see no problem with a woman teaching men, but the authority that comes with a pastorate is not for the female. God created the woman as a helper for the man. Eve was rather easily deceived by the serpent, and Adam was not, and this difference probably contributes to this tenet.

WHAT??? I cannot beleive you are lobbing me such a softball.

Please re-read the Creation accounts.

Note this (emphasis added) in Gen 3:6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Adam was standing there the whole time. Your justification for keeping females under your feet is thus destroyed.

 

[Rufus_1611]

What language was the New Testament written in?

Answer me that, then we can discuss the English.

Swahili?

..

 

[tragic_pizza]

Swahili?

..

Greek, Rufus. It was written in Greek.

Thus when we discuss the meanings of words, we discuss the meanings of those original Greek words, not a selection of translations to English.

Now, you were saying?

 

[Rev. Lowery]

WHAT??? I cannot beleive you are lobbing me such a softball.

Please re-read the Creation accounts.

Note this (emphasis added) in Gen 3:6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Adam was standing there the whole time. Your justification for keeping females under your feet is thus destroyed.

No one is trying to keep women under foot you need to stop thinking the way you are thinking. I'll not imply what I think you are thinking as that may make some people think my thinking is only to imply something your not really thinking!

So, that being said I feel you are trying to say the Bible is incorrect because woman should be equal to men in all aspects? If you do not feel this way please let us know because you sure are implying that you feel this way imho!

Please tell use how you would define a womans role the way God intended?

What is a womans place, according to scripture?

What do you think Wives reverence your husband means?

What is a womans purpose in marriage?

Answer the question with scripture and open your heart!

 

[bmerr]

bmerr,

What do you do with 1 Corinthians 11:5? I realize that I am not going to change your mind, just thought I would point out the preaching on the part of women was a normal and expected part of the early church at least according to Paul.

go2church,

bmerr here. Missed this one. Sorry. I'd have to say that the praying and prophecying Paul spoke of here was done in keeping with other instructions concerning the conduct of women in the church. It would have been amongst women, apart from men. Otherwise, Paul contradicts himself, or worse, the Holy Spirit does.

Again, let me say for those of you who support the idea of women preaching/teaching in a mixed (men and women) assembly, I don't personally have any objection to it. Lot's of women are terrific public speakers with a good handle on the Bible. I just don't find authorization for it in the New Testament.

One of the most faithful Christians I know is a woman that sits behind me during worship. She and her husband have four daughters from age 6 to 14, all with a wonderful example of a Christian woman to learn from. I enjoy little more than sitting down with her and some others in a Bible study and sharing insights with her on the Scriptures. I know she is an able teacher, as she heads up the women's class bi-weekly. But if she were standing in the pulpit preparing to teach the congregation, I'd have to leave. (She wouldn't, anyway, but if she did...)

I stopped by the church building one time while the ladies class was in progress (I was new to the church at that time), and when I stuck my head in the room where she was teaching, she stopped her lesson, and would not continue until I left. She knew that she could not teach with a man present. It's simply a matter of authority, not preference.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

But isn't this carrying out the theology of folks like Jack Hyles (who says that women preachers and bossy women are an abomination) to its logical conclusion?

pizza,

bmerr here. No idea of who Jack Hyles is. The problem is that this kind of thing is just what you said: carrying out the theology of Jack Hyles. There is nothing in the New Testament that remotely authorizes the killing of those who disagree with us. No authority for the RC crusades, and no authority for the actions of Jack Hyles' overzealous disciple.

It's an extreme example of someone blindly following the word of a man, instead of studying to shew himself approved unto God (2 Tim 2:15). Most cases are (thankfully) far less destructive.

If women are bad seed to some "Christians," then killing them is doing God a service, is it not? Especially if they go so far as to answer God's call on their lives to preach the Gospel...

Please, let's not misuse the name "Christian" by placing it on such as we are discussing. It's a title used far too loosely by the world, anyway.

The apostle Paul thought he was doing service to God by having Christians put to death, yet while doing so, he was acting in good conscience (Acts 23:1). An improperly trained conscience can result in people doing horrible things, all the while thinking they are doing right. The murderer who killed your friend seems to be such a one.

Also, the idea that God "calls" people to do this or that is not supported by the Scriptures. Certainly in the 1st century the Spirit of God spoke to certain people and told them what to do, but God is done with speaking to men. He speaks through His word, and through His word alone.

Lots of people have an urge to do something, and they think it's the Holy Spirit "prompting" them to do it. The Spirit never "prompted" anyone to do anything in the Bible. If He wanted someone to do something, He spoke to them (Acts 8:26, 29; 10:19; 13:2, etc).

And, as pointed out by others, God would not call someone to do something contrary to His word.

If a point of theology does not bring life, that point of theology is suspect to say the least. I cannot find one instance where this phobia over women in the pulpit is life-bringing.

I believe a phobia is an unreasonable fear of something. I do not have a fear of women preachers, (except for their souls), I just cannot approve of something that is not authorized by the New Testament.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[TaterTot]

This is something that we are never going to agree on. It seems a little extreme that a woman would stop teaching until a man leaves the room, but if thats her preference, then at least she is being consistent. I dont think most here are advocating a female pastor. But when ones digs into the original languages, something must be done with the deaconesses and other issues that have already been raised here. I think if Paul had meant to be dogmatic that women not teach in the presence of a man, he would have said exactly that. God sure is blessing the likes of Ann Graham Lotz, Beth Moore and many others.

 

[bmerr]

Please, someone, explain to me how this idea that women are not worthy to occupy a pulpit -- and I especially want to hear from you Hyle-ites -- is not a death-dealing, Satanic doctrine.

pizza,

bmerr here. Dear, you are painting with a very broad brush. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of those who do not support the idea of women preachers would not do what Mr. Cobler did. There's no telling how messed up he had allowed his mind to get.

Be very careful which doctrines you call "Satanic". Attributing the work of God to Satan is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:22-30). I know that is not what you intended.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[annsni]

I think if Paul had meant to be dogmatic that women not teach in the presence of a man, he would have said exactly that.

1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

 

[TaterTot]

But Paul did permit women to teach..Phoebe( deaconness) and Priscilla (who taught Apollos in the presence of a male) and what about Lydia starting a church in Acts (i believe)

The verb for usurp may be translated as "to domineer or dominate". Its not a universal prohibition but specifically relates to the situation in Ephesus.

2 Timothy, like all the epistles, is an occasional document, rises out of and is intended for a specific situation. So you have to look at what was going on in that location before you make blanket statements that everyone must follow. Thats called "eisogesis" instead of "exegesis".

I still stand by my statement. If its such a big deal, then why wasnt it told to those in Colosse, Thessalonica, Derby, Lystra, Antioch, Rome, and other places Paul went on his journey? (Even in Corinth, Paul assumed that a woman is going to be praying and prophesying in corporate worship. We cannot argue (from silence) that ladies are only doing that in the presence of ladies.) It seems obvious that they had a particular problem in Ephesus.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Greek, Rufus. It was written in Greek.

Ahhh Greek...now it's coming together for me...I was wondering why my Swahili interlinear contained so many errors.

Thus when we discuss the meanings of words, we discuss the meanings of those original Greek words, not a selection of translations to English.

I am one of those ignorant ones that doesn't know Greek so I just stick with the English. How long have you been fluent in it?

Now, you were saying?

I'm saying why do you think you are more wise at Greek to English translation than all of the hundreds of translators of both traditional and modern versions that say Phebe was a servant to the church and gives no indication of her being a pastor? Is there an English Bible that you believe in or do you stick entirely to the Greek? Also, which Greek text is your authority?

 

[bmerr]

You tell me why we can accept that the social and societal mores of those who wrote the Scriptures was different enough that, today, slavery is unacceptable, yet those same patriarchal mores don't figure in to the discussion about women.

Please.

pizza,

bmerr here. Sweetie, (term of endearment, nothing more), I can tell that this is an emotional issue for you, and I hope you don't think I'm being harsh in my posts to you. I believe that you have an earnest desire to understand this issue, and I want to help.

As for the rest of you, CALM DOWN AND QUIT BEATING THIS GIRL ABOUT THE HEAD AND NECK WITH YOUR POSTS! Let's all take a deep breath and be civil in our discussion. It can be done.

Okay, why is slavery considered wrong today, though it was accepted in the 1st century, and yet the teaching concerning a woman's role in the church has not changed? Is this a fair re-statement of your question, pizza?

Something many are suprised to learn is that the Bible does not condemn slavery. It does, however, command that Christian slaves be obedient to their masters, serving them as they serve the Lord (Eph 6:5-8), and that Christian slave owners, or masters, treat their servants fairly, knowing that God is no respecter of persons (Eph 6:9).

Slaves could be male or female (menservants or maidservants), as could slave owners, or masters (Philemon, and Potiphar's wife, for example).

Had God forbidden slavery, slaves would have flocked to Christianity simply to gain freedom from slavery, and slave owners would have rejected Christianity out of hand, preferring to keep their slaves.

On the other hand, the matter of women preaching is explicitly addressed by inspriation, limiting the teaching of women in the assembly to other women and children, with the exception that everyone, male and female teaches each other when we engage in singing.

Again, dear, it's not a matter of preference, but of authorization. And let me repeat, there is no NT authority for us to kill those who believe or practice differently than we do. Those who do so will be judged accordingly as the murderers that they are, unless they repent and obey the gospel.

In Christ,

bmerr