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Scripture Supporting a Pretrib Removal of the Church

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Mar 15, 2005.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The question has been asked endlessly on a number of threads for specific Scripture that support a removal of the Church prior to the so-called Great Tribulation. So far none have been forthcoming. Hopefully this thread will bring some forth, if they exist.
     
    #1 OldRegular, Mar 15, 2005
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    This topic has been so thoroughly discussed here I must wonder why you are still asking. Be unconvinced if you must, but don't pretend like nothing has been offered in support of it.

    There is no one verse that teaches a pretrib Rapture, and there is no one verse that teaches a posttrib rapture. Both are the results of systematizing Scripture, and neither are ironclad or without difficulties. As a whole, the pretrib position deals better with the bulk of Scripture than teh post trib.

    If you are truly interested in scriptural support and argumentation, a board such as this is not a good place to get it, since neither position (pre or post) can give its arguments in a few paragraphs. Read something like The Rapture Question by Walvoord. You may not agree but at you can disagree with knowledge, rather than out of ignorance as you currently seem to be doing.

    In all of this, there is no substitute for careful, honest study of the Scripture. And if you come to a different conclusion than I, then that is between you and God. But whatever you do, don't pretend that the pre trib Rapture has never been supported. It clearly has.

    For starters, study 1 Thess 5:1-11, and ask yourself, in context, what the "wrath" of v. 11 is that God will save the church from. In context, it can't be hell or eternal wrath. That is not even being talked about. It is a different wrath.

    Study also 2 Thess 2:1ff, and ask yourself why the Thessalonian believers were surprised to be going through tribulation. If Paul truly taught a posttrib rapture, then they should have expected it. Only if he taught a pretrib rapture would they be surprised to be in a time of tribulation.

    There are many other theological ideas and passages that could be brought to bear on this question, but those will get your started. In the end, this board can bear the weight of a full presentation of hte position. You will have to actually study for this one.
     
    #2 Pastor Larry, Mar 15, 2005
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I see that you have the heart of a pastor but then I have come to expect nothing less from a follower of Darby/Scofield. :D
     
    #3 OldRegular, Mar 15, 2005
  4. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
     
    #4 James_Newman, Mar 15, 2005
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You correctly state: "There is no one verse that teaches a pretrib Rapture". However, thare is one passage of Scripture that teaches a General Resurrection and Judgment, John 5:28, 29.

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Even the most blatant eisegesis cannot get multiple resurrections years and hundreds of years apart out of this passage. :D
     
    #5 OldRegular, Mar 15, 2005
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    God knows that I want to escape it ... It will be one BAD day ...
     
    #6 El_Guero, Mar 15, 2005
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    This seems to be the only real basis for this doctrine. What if Jesus Christ had escaped the cross? [​IMG]
     
    #7 OldRegular, Mar 15, 2005
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
     
    #8 James_Newman, Mar 15, 2005
  9. Michaelt

    Michaelt Member
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    I have a question for someone to answer for me?

    In Revelation John goes through describing the judgements, the seal judgements, the trumpet judgements, the vial judgements.

    Where is "the church" during all of this? Why is there no mention of the church for 15 or more chapters of Revelation?
     
    #9 Michaelt, Mar 15, 2005
  10. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    This poor brother has redundantly asked for verses concerning this doctrine, and then blatantly refuses to even comment on them. (See thread, The Rapture, under my posts, where they were presented.) He DIDN'T response to a single verse of scripture presented.

    Only the Holy Spirit CAN OPEN eyes of the blind to the scriptures.
     
    #10 carlaimpinge, Mar 15, 2005
  11. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    These beasts (kings) and elders are before the throne prior to the second coming. They must have been raptured.

    Lacy
     
    #11 Lacy Evans, Mar 15, 2005
  12. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Larry,

    I'll have to disagree with you concerning that no one verse can prove a pretribulation rapture. You are mimicking Walvoord's statement which concerns a PREWEEK rapture, not a pretrib rapture.

    Paul taught the pretrib rapture by these verses in his first doctrinal epistles on the gathering.

    1 Thess. 1:10, 4:13-5:1-10, 2 Thess.2:1-17

    Many can't get the truth that the gathering is MIDWEEK, not preweek. The ONLY eschatological tribulation, defined by the Lord Jesus Christ, begins at the midst of Daniel's week at the sighting of the AOD and the invasion of Jerusalem.

    The wrath to come, which we as the body of Christ are delivered from, IS the great tribulation, as seen stated by John the Baptist in Matthew and Luke's gospels. The FLEEING of the Jews concerns the time of great tribulation. (Matt.3,24, Luke 3, 21) That is the days of vengeance, when Jerusalem, is invaded at the midst of the week. (Rev.11, Zech.14, Micah 2, Dan.7,8,9,11,12) It is the time of Jacob's trouble, which concerns the day of the Lord, which Paul states that WE ESCAPE. (1 Thess.5)

    Hope this helps brother.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
    #12 carlaimpinge, Mar 15, 2005
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think these were not simply the sould of those who died in Jesus Christ?
     
    #13 OldRegular, Mar 15, 2005
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The argument is made that because the words church or churches do not appear after the completion of the third chapter of the Revelation, the Church cannot be present during the events described in the succeeding chapters. The word churches is used eleven times in Chapters 1-3, the word church is used seven times in these same chapters. The word church or churches does not appear again until Chapter 22, Verse 16. However, the term saints is used in Revelation 5:8; 8:3, 4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 15:3; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; and 20:9. The term redeemed is used in Revelation 5:9 and 14:3, 4. Both of these terms are characteristic of the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ when found elsewhere in the New Testament [Gregg, Revelation, Four Views, page 87]. The appearance of the churches again in Chapter 22, Verse 16 and the succeeding verse is interesting and informative.

    Revelation 22:16,17, KJV
    16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
    17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Notice two things,

    1. Jesus sent His angel to testify of these things in the churches, and
    2. The Spirit and the Bride, the Church, give the invitation to come and take of the water of life freely.

    These are strange statements to make if the Church is inconsequential during much of the period covered in Revelation; is gone during the tribulation period, and Jesus Christ rules with a ‘rod of iron’ during the millennium.

    Now we examine the appearance of the words Israel or Jew in the Book of Revelation. The word Israel appears three times in the Book of Revelation, Chapters 2, 7, and 21; the word Jews appears only twice, Chapters 2 and 3, and there the reference is to false Jews. So we see that a reference to Israel appears only once during that part of the Book that is presumed to represent the seven year tribulation and Jacob’s time of trouble. The first time the word Israel is used [2:14] the reference is to the false prophet Balaam and his role in the seduction of Israel en route to the promise land. In Chapter 7 the name Israel is used in the discussion of the servants of God who are sealed. The next occasion [21:12] the name is used in the description of the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. Again, Israel is referred to only one time, and no reference is made to the Jews, during that period in which it is claimed that the Church is absent.

    It is interesting to note that there are other books in the New Testament where the words church or churches are not used. The words do not appear in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John. If one believes that the Church was not established until Pentecost, that is not necessarily unusual. It is interesting, however, that the book that many dispensationalists claim is the Gospel of the Kingdom [written by a Jewish believer who collected taxes for Rome] is the Gospel in which the Church is first proclaimed. The words church or churches are not mentioned in 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd John, and Jude. Can we then argue the absence of the Church? The words are also absent from the first 15 chapters of Romans and occur only twice in Hebrews.

    To show that the absence or presence of a word is not decisive consider the Book of Esther in the Old Testament. The editor of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible notes “The name of God does not appear in the book, while a heathen king is referred to over 150 times. There is no allusion to prayer or spiritual service of any kind with the possible exception of fasting.” Does this absence of reference to God mean that He was absent or that the book of Esther should not be in the Canon? Obviously not. The book of Esther was written to show God’s providential watch care over His Covenant people through whom He would bring the Saviour into the world.

    In conclusion, there are books in the New Testament in which the words church or churches are not mentioned. Therefore, the absence of the word church in Chapters 4-19 of the book of Revelation is scant justification to claim that the Church is absent during the period covered by these chapters. However, I believe the best argument against a pretribulation “Rapture” is contained in the proper interpretation of John 5:28,29.

    Alan Johnson writing in the Expositors Bible Commentary, Volume 12, page 461 explains the absence of the word church as follows: “the word church or churches always stands in Revelation for the historic seven churches in Asia and not for the universal body of Christ. Since 4:2-22:15 concerns the believing community as a whole, it would be inappropriate at least for John’s usage to find the narrower term ‘church’ in this section.”
     
    #14 OldRegular, Mar 15, 2005
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Since you called me a lying dog or a blind drunk there is no basis for continued dialog with you. :D
     
    #15 OldRegular, Mar 15, 2005
  16. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    I'm not positive as to the abode of the saved dead before the ressurrection. (I think it is paradise. I go back and forth as to whether that is somewhere in the heavens or still in the heart of the Earth.)

    However I think we can be reasonably sure that disembodied, unjudged (Pre JSOC) saved souls would be right around the very throne of God proclaiming (presumptuously) their kingship (a reward given at the JSOC).

    lacy
     
    #16 Lacy Evans, Mar 15, 2005
  17. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Since you called me a lying dog or a blind drunk there is no basis for continued dialog with you. :D </font>[/QUOTE]No brother. I called to your attention the words of the prophet ISAIAH. (56, 29)

    The MODERATORS cut my post after you whined, but it looks like you STILL WANT everyone to know about the words of Isaiah.
     
    #17 carlaimpinge, Mar 15, 2005
  18. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Too late to edit.
    . . .would NOT be right around the very throne. . .
     
    #18 Lacy Evans, Mar 15, 2005
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Tonight,

    I will reply back to you about verses as James Newman quoted like as Rev. 3:10, etc.

    Tonight is my off from my 2rd shift job. I will have more time to make post on these.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
    #19 DeafPosttrib, Mar 15, 2005
  20. Deafmidweeker

    Deafmidweeker New Member

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    If you want a verse to support "Pretribulatinal Rapture" doctrine, it will be I Corinthians 15: 51-52:

    51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    The verse 51 shows this Rapture is a MYSTERY! It is not Revealed in the Old Testament. Also it is not revealed in the 4 Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This MYSTERY is revealed to the Apostle Paul by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who gave His Revelations to Apostle Paul shortly after he got saved in Acts 9.

    If you want another verse, see Romans 16:20:

    20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

    This verse show that God will bruise Satan according to Genesis 3:15:

    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    According to Revelation 12:3, Satan has 7 heads, and one of them will be bruised. See Revelation 13:3:

    3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    It shows that the Lord Jesus Christ will kill the 7th Head/King (the Anti-Christ before becoming the Beast/Son of Perdition) just after the Rapture of the Body of Christ, for the Body of Christ will be over Satan's Head, when it happened. It shows the Pre-Tribulational, Midweek Rapture!!

    It is clear that the Bible supports this Rapture doctrine, and there are many other verses that do support them. All you do is READ and STUDY the Bible!

    Deafmidweeker
     
    #20 Deafmidweeker, Mar 15, 2005
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