SDA unique doctrine

[targus]

One of the doctrines of the SDA is:

The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

The gift of prophecy - o.k.
The Bible is the standard - o.k.
Ellen G.White - huh?

Some questions for a member of the SDA denomination:

1. Must all SDA members believe that Ellen G. White "manifested" the gift of prophecy?

2. If so, did you personally test Ellen G. White against the Bible before becoming a member of the SDA denomination?

3. Can you explain how Ellen G. White's "gift of prophecy" was tested against the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Gift of prophecy -- ok? -- You accept 1Cor 12? 1Cor 14? as being valid???

2. Can you give me an example of someone that you believe has/had the Gift of prophecy??

3. Given that Ellen White was Adventist - and that scripture says that all messages given by a prophet with the claim that the message is of God must be in conformity to the Word of God "If they speak not according to this Word it is because they have no light" Isaiah 8 -- then how in the world can we discuss the degree to which Ellen White conforms to the doctrines of scripture without first discussing the Doctrines of the Adventist Church vs scripture -- since "She was Adventist"???

If it turns out that you are "Baptist" when you do this exercise - it is "Likely" that you find Baptist doctrines not Adventist ones to be the ones you accept from the Bible.

If if turns out that you are "Presbyterian" when you do this exercise - it is "likely" that you will find that it is Presbyterian doctrines not Adventist one that you accept from the Bible.

If it turns out that you are Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist ... You get the idea.

When Ellen White speaks to the subject of (and in favor of) believer's Baptism, the state of the dead, the literal millennium, the pre-mill second coming, the Trinity, the 2Cor 5 judgment of all, the literal bodily resurrection of christ, the literal bodily resurrection of the saints, the need to test all doctrines "Sola Scriptura", the fact of free will, the process of Atonement as defined in scripture .... etc these messages that she claims to have come from God are going to "cut across somebody's doctrinal view".

I don't see how anyone who is not already Adventist in doctrine would even begin to confirm her as a prophet. I don't see how a Baptist would ever confirm a Lutheran prophet if that prophet endorsed the very doctrinal distinctives of the Lurtheran faith that are in opposition to that which most Baptists believe.

Just stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Take a simple case of Believer's Baptism - Ellen White claimed that this is the correct model - first one comes to faith in God and is born-again and then one is baptized as the symbol of that new life in Christ.

Those today that teach infant baptism (Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, etc) would not agree, for them she is a false prophet on this test "alone".

Those who teach "Baptismal regeneration" would not agree - for them she is a false-prophet on this test "alone".

As we all can easily see.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Bob Ryan, let's get through the questions listed in the opening post before expanding into other areas.

I look forward to your direct answers to my direct questions.

 

[AAA]

One of the doctrines of the SDA is:

The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

The gift of prophecy - o.k.
The Bible is the standard - o.k.
Ellen G.White - huh?

Some questions for a member of the SDA denomination:

1. Must all SDA members believe that Ellen G. White "manifested" the gift of prophecy?

2. If so, did you personally test Ellen G. White against the Bible before becoming a member of the SDA denomination?

3. Can you explain how Ellen G. White's "gift of prophecy" was tested against the Bible.

I 2nd this post..n/t

 

[BobRyan]

The gift of prophecy - o.k.
The Bible is the standard - o.k.
Ellen G.White - huh?

Some questions for a member of the SDA denomination:

1. Must all SDA members believe that Ellen G. White "manifested" the gift of prophecy?

Answer: No.

2. If so, did you personally test Ellen G. White against the Bible before becoming a member of the SDA denomination?

I grew up on the Adventist church but yes I have tested the doctrinal statements she has made to see if they line up with scripture.

3. Can you explain how Ellen G. White's "gift of prophecy" was tested against the Bible.

Historically Ellen White (actually Ellen Harmon) was just a teenager when she had her first vision and there was not Sevent-day Adventist church.

There is no doctrine believed and voted by Adventists that requires or relies on statements from Ellen White to either be "discovered" or "known" or "proven".

All SDA doctrine either stands or falls "sola scriptura".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan, let's get through the questions listed in the opening post before expanding into other areas.

I look forward to your direct answers to my direct questions.

My earlier post was specific to Ellen White -- which I interpreted to be your specific question. My point was that Ellen White's messages cover all distinctive doctrinal statements of the Adventist church (though they are not the origin for them) so a sola-scriptura doctrinal exercise must first be done for SDA doctrines themselves and only then can we begin to discuss Ellen White with any possible outcome other than a negative one.

My last post is in regard to SDA doctrines in general and the fact that they must be tested "sola scriptura" -- not sola-Ellen White nor even "scripture plus Ellen White". Ellen White's role in the SDA church was not -- and still is not one of "creating or establishing or testing doctrine".

That is the Adventist position - and it was also Ellen White's position on the "Sola Scriptura" process for all doctrine - even SDA doctrine.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Answer: No.



I grew up on the Adventist church but yes I have tested the doctrinal statements she has made to see if they line up with scripture.



Historically Ellen White (actually Ellen Harmon) was just a teenager when she had her first vision and there was not Sevent-day Adventist church.

There is no doctrine believed and voted by Adventists that requires or relies on statements from Ellen White to either be "discovered" or "known" or "proven".

All SDA doctrine either stands or falls "sola scriptura".

In Christ,

Bob

Thanks for the reply.

For simplicity sake let's address one question at a time.


Queston: Must all SDA members believe that Ellen G. White "manifested" the gift of prophecy?

BobRyan's Answer: No.


No? Well I sure didn't see that one coming.

The doctrinal statement in question says, "The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

Can you explain your answer of "No" in light of the above doctrinal statement?

 

[BobRyan]

Your access to the facts is somewhat limited - the SDA church is comprised of about 14 million members with about 1 million being in the U.S. In Europe and Australia it is very common that members hold fully to the SDA set of doctrines but do not agree that Ellen White had the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy. Admittedly this is nothing like the majority of SDAs but it is "fact" and one reason it is so well accepted is that Ellen White herself stated that while members needed to accept the teaching of 1Cor 12 the fact of her having the gift listed there should "never be made a test of fellowship".

And sure enough -- it is not.

As already stated - Ellen White has never been a source for doctrine in the Adventist church and no doctrine is based on "proof" from Ellen White. This includes our teaching on Spiritual Gifts.

I am simply stating the facts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

exAdventist Outreach
Ministry of former Adventists with Biblical Answers on Adventism

 

[targus]

Your access to the facts is somewhat limited - the SDA church is comprised of about 14 million members with about 1 million being in the U.S. In Europe and Australia it is very common that members hold fully to the SDA set of doctrines but do not agree that Ellen White had the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy. Admittedly this is nothing like the majority of SDAs but it is "fact" and one reason it is so well accepted is that Ellen White herself stated that while members needed to accept the teaching of 1Cor 12 the fact of her having the gift listed there should "never be made a test of fellowship".

And sure enough -- it is not.

As already stated - Ellen White has never been a source for doctrine in the Adventist church and no doctrine is based on "proof" from Ellen White. This includes our teaching on Spiritual Gifts.

I am simply stating the facts.

In Christ,

Bob

I see. Where may I find the "SDA set of doctrines" to which you refer?

And where may I find the Ellen White statement that while members needed to accept the teaching of 1Cor 12 the fact of her having the gift listed there should "never be made a test of fellowship".

 

[BobRyan]

References as to why the SDA church has never had the acceptance of Ellen White's 1Cor 12 spiritual gift as a "test of fellowship".

1. James S. White: co-founder (with EGW and Joseph Bates) of the SDA Church, thrice GC President an aggregate of 10 years, and founder of four periodicals: Present Truth, theReview and Herald, the Youth's Instructor, and the Signs of the Times:

a. "It is well known that we have been charged with testing all men by the visions, and of making them therule of our faith. This is a bold untruth, of which those who uttered it were not ignorant. This I have denied, and deny it still".-Review and Herald Article, Feb. 14, 1856, p. 158.

b. Some 15 years later, he added that Adventists believed that God called her "to do a special work at this time, among this people. They do not, however, make belief in this work a test of Christian fellowship" (ibid,. June 13, 1871, p. 205; cited in QOD, 97).

2. Ellen G. White herself was explicit on this point:
a. Speaking in 1862 of those who did not fully understand the gift, she wrote:
(1) "Such should not be deprived of the benefits and privileges of the church, if their Christian course is otherwise correct, and they have formed a good Christian character".-Testimonies Vol 1 page 328:0 (for a fuller statement, see especially pp. 328, 329, and-in 1863-"Wrong Use of the Visions," pp. 382-84).

3. John Nevins Andrews: scholar of Hebrew and Greek, theologian, editor of the RH, and the first ("official") missionary to Europe (1874), and Advent Movement "founding father:"
a. "We therefore do not test the world in any manner by these gifts. Nor do we in our intercourse with other religious bodies who are striving to walk in the fear of God, in any way make these a test of Christian character".-Review and Herald article, Feb. 15, 1870;
cited in Questions on Doctrines p.97.

4. Uriah Smith: five times RH editor (for an aggregate of 41 yrs.), five times GC Secretary, author, poet, Battle Creek College Bible teacher:
a. "But I have not believed, as past volumes of the Reviewwill testify, that these, or any other manifestation of spiritual gifts, stood on a level with the Scriptures, or that they should be made a test of fellowship. I see as yet no occasion to change my views in any of these respects".-RH Supplement, Aug. 14, 1883.

5. George I. Butler: twice GC President (1871-74; 1880-88):
a. "Our enemies try very hard to make it appear that we make the visions a test of fellowship. . . . Our leading men have never done this, and the visions themselves teach that it should not be done. -"The Visions: How Are They Held Among S.D. Adventists," RH Supplement, Aug. 14, 1883.

Statement of voted Doctrinal beliefs of SDAs

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

In Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

References as to why the SDA church has never had the acceptance of Ellen White's 1Cor 12 spiritual gift as a "test of fellowship".



Statement of voted Doctrinal beliefs of SDAs

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

In Christ,

Bob

From your link to "Statement of voted Doctrinal beliefs of SDAs"

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)


From this I see that Ellen White as manifesting the gift of prophecy is a "doctrine" of the SDA denomination.

But accepting "this" particular doctrine is not required to in order to be a member of the SDA denomination?

If this is the standard as "voted" then the other statements which you provided would not be relevant since they were not "voted" on.

The only conclusion one could then draw would be that the "doctrine" is that Ellen White must be accepted as a prophet but the "practice" is to disregard the "doctrine".

 

[targus]

References as to why the SDA church has never had the acceptance of Ellen White's 1Cor 12 spiritual gift as a "test of fellowship".



Statement of voted Doctrinal beliefs of SDAs

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

In Christ,

Bob

Bob, I can't help but find it amusing that when I referred to this very site in another thread concerning abortion - you insisted that it listed "opinons" and not "voted doctrine".

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

exAdventist Outreach
Ministry of former Adventists with Biblical Answers on Adventism

Targus: You can best find out your answers from an ex-Adventist instead of carrying on this personal vendetta with Bob Ryan. He is what he is and he has a right to be that. You are not going to change his beliefs.

Did you even LOOK at the link I provided in my first post?

These threads of yours are bordering on 'flaming' which is against the BB rules that you agreed to when you joined. So, if you want to continue this 'baiting' of Bob, I suggest you take it private. Consider this a gentle warning...

Thank you,
§ue
Administrator

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

exAdventist Outreach
Ministry of former Adventists with Biblical Answers on Adventism

Wow. Interesting stuff Sue. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I am jumping in here -- havn't read any posts so far; just the heading makes my blood boil. I have been patient sixty years long with Seventh Day Adventism and 'Spirit of Prophecy'-blasphemy.

I have started on something that will once for all show and prove the hoax both are. Just give me a little more time; I have all my life refused to undertake this sort of thing, but they forced me to change my mind. The Word shall destroy them!

 

[BobRyan]

References as to why the SDA church has never had the acceptance of Ellen White's 1Cor 12 spiritual gift as a "test of fellowship".

1. James S. White: co-founder (with EGW and Joseph Bates) of the SDA Church, thrice GC President an aggregate of 10 years, and founder of four periodicals: Present Truth, theReview and Herald, the Youth's Instructor, and the Signs of the Times:

a. "It is well known that we have been charged with testing all men by the visions, and of making them therule of our faith. This is a bold untruth, of which those who uttered it were not ignorant. This I have denied, and deny it still".-Review and Herald Article, Feb. 14, 1856, p. 158.

b. Some 15 years later, he added that Adventists believed that God called her "to do a special work at this time, among this people. They do not, however, make belief in this work a test of Christian fellowship" (ibid,. June 13, 1871, p. 205; cited in QOD, 97).

2. Ellen G. White herself was explicit on this point:
a. Speaking in 1862 of those who did not fully understand the gift, she wrote:
(1) "Such should not be deprived of the benefits and privileges of the church, if their Christian course is otherwise correct, and they have formed a good Christian character".-Testimonies Vol 1 page 328:0 (for a fuller statement, see especially pp. 328, 329, and-in 1863-"Wrong Use of the Visions," pp. 382-84).

3. John Nevins Andrews: scholar of Hebrew and Greek, theologian, editor of the RH, and the first ("official") missionary to Europe (1874), and Advent Movement "founding father:"
a. "We therefore do not test the world in any manner by these gifts. Nor do we in our (dialogue) with other religious bodies who are striving to walk in the fear of God, in any way make these a test of Christian character".-Review and Herald article, Feb. 15, 1870;
cited in Questions on Doctrines p.97.

4. Uriah Smith: five times RH editor (for an aggregate of 41 yrs.), five times GC Secretary, author, poet, Battle Creek College Bible teacher:
a. "But I have not believed, as past volumes of the Reviewwill testify, that these, or any other manifestation of spiritual gifts, stood on a level with the Scriptures, or that they should be made a test of fellowship. I see as yet no occasion to change my views in any of these respects".-RH Supplement, Aug. 14, 1883.

5. George I. Butler: twice GC President (1871-74; 1880-88):
a. "Our enemies try very hard to make it appear that we make the visions a test of fellowship. . . . Our leading men have never done this, and the visions themselves teach that it should not be done. -"The Visions: How Are They Held Among S.D. Adventists," RH Supplement, Aug. 14, 1883.

The only conclusion one could then draw would be that the "doctrine" is that Ellen White must be accepted as a prophet but the "practice" is to disregard the "doctrine".

1. There is no "must be accepted" statement in ANY of our docrines much less the spiritual gifts -- What you are looking for in SDA parlance is "test of fellowship". Keep looking.

?? "bad news is bad news"
"good news is bad news"???:laugh:

"NEWS is bad news":applause: :laugh: :applause:

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I can't help but find it amusing that when I referred to this very site in another thread concerning abortion - you insisted that it listed "opinons" and not "voted doctrine".

It is true that "not every word on that site" is from the actual SDA 28 fundamental beliefs. This is easily observed at the site because it tells you "these are the fundamental beliefs" -- but then mabye you were relying on the fact that many readers will not click on the site and "see that fact",

Who knows.

But your point is actually workinig against your system of complaints because what we see here is that not only are the "opinions" of various administrators "not binding on SDAs" but there is also flexibility WITHIN the actual VOTED statements so that not all of them are a test of fellowship.

Your "SDAs must accept" and "Must believe" speculations are not holding up in the specific areas you choose to highlight.

Just stating the obvious here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Your "SDAs must accept" and "Must believe" speculations are not holding up in the specific areas you choose to highlight.

Just stating the obvious here.

in Christ,

Bob

I have not made any "SDAs must accept" and "Must believe" speculations.

I am merely pointing out that the statement of belief which you provided and which I included in the opening post of this thread states that Ellen White manifested the gift of prophecy.

So now after you have explained it to me, I understand that no SDA member is required to hold any particular belief - whether it is a fundemental belief voted on by the world wide SDA church or not.

I am left wondering as to the purpose of a stated set of beliefs for any denomination if they are optional. I suspect that most denominations would prefer that persons entering into their denomination accept the doctrines of that denomination.

Is it fair to conclude then that an SDA will not be excluded if they rejected any of the other beliefs listed?