security

Yes, as per John 10:29.

Calvinists believe that as believers we were given to the Son by the Father through the process of unconditional election and Jesus keeps secure all that the Father gives Him.

 

After a fashion, they do. They call it "Perserverance of the saints." Whereas free will believes in "Preservation of the saints." See the difference?

Reform can (and do) slip into the notion that the saved can lose their salvation or never had it if they don't live like other Calvinists think they should. After all, it is "techinically" expressed as OUR own perserverance that is the proof, not God's promised preservation.

One of the main reasons they express it that way is because they have very little "eternal security" since they can only hope that God has chosen them to salvation. See, if Calvinism would allow that man chooses Christ reather than vice versa, man would know whether his eternity was secure or not.

Calvinist "security," like most Catholics, is a function of "fruit" -- "perserverance," not "preservation."

skypair

 

Because God has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world we can be positive our salvation is eternlly secure, as it depends on Him and His surity, and not on us and our works. When everything depends on God and not us we can always be sure.

 

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

There aren't any verses that include our names. But we who are chosen really can know for certain.

 

Hopefully no one will give this drivel a second thought. If so, I might condecend to refute it. Being so grossly inaccurate do I need to?

 

But Calvinism and the Doctrine of Grace will not allow that, ever. For the simple reason that it is not what Scripture says, that is what you say.

As for the perseverance thing, you once again shot your mouth off faster than your brain can think because not all in the Doctrine of Grace take the "P" of TULIP as "Perseverance" of the Saints.

We at our church in Maryland would rather call it the Preservation of the Saints, because that is what is in Scripture, and if there is but one among Doctrine of Grace -ers who do not conform to Perseverance of the Saints then you are guilty of misrepresentation.

 

I agree (with preservation vs. perserverence). That's one reason why I say I'm not in 100% agreement with Calvinism as people generally define it (although it's more than just TULIP).
.

 

No matter what side you're on, this statement is wrong because no one is saved until God says you are. We are not the final authority on our salvation, God is. Whether you believe you choose Him or He chooses you, you are not eternally secure until He says you are. That's when you'll know.


Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

 

I don't have a problem with either term being used. I think both perseverence and preservation express what compatibilism teaches. God preserves us as His elect, yet we persevere in our salvation as we ought.
I don't think it has to be either/or.
Both terms describe what is being done by each member of the covenant.

 

Can you elucidate further on the term "persevere" ?

 

1. My own view of eternal security is based on the intercessory work of the Trinity: The Father keeps me as the Son intercedes for me while the Spirit indwells me as a seal for the day of redemption and all this is evident in my faith (Jd 1, 21, 24; Rom. 8:34; Heb 7:25; 9:24 and Eph 1:14; 4:30).

2. If these Scriptures are explained away then I have no hope of ever being saved. None.

 

Sure. Let me quote a couple of passages that speak to what I'm describing.

Paul taught that the Christian needs to participate in the race by running towards the goal, full speed ahead, as it were.
Not because salvation has not been granted, but so that we strive to continue in that path marked out for us.
Not giving up or giving in to the disappointments and temptations that regularly surround us.

Hope that helps.

 

Yes, but what is your definition of "come?" If it is that God "dragged" you, I doubt if that counts. :laugh:

skypair

 

It might be nice if you told us the difference in definition between "perserverance" and "preservation." :thumbs:

skypair

 

Hey --- I'm with YOU at first!!

What do you mean by "if there is but one among Doctrine of Gracers who do not conform to Perseverance of the Saints then you are guilty of misrepresentation?"

skypair

 

Amy -- according to your own testimony, "you don't have a dog in this fight." God promises that those who choose Him He has already chosen. In fact, ALL are "chosen" to "not perish but have eternal life."

skypair

 

If God "dragged" me to him and saved me as a result of that "dragging", why should I disparage His means? I love Him all the more for His persistence and His patience.