'Seed to the sower and bread to the eater'

[kyredneck]

@1689Dave :
"Why preach if only the born-again can discern the truth in it?" [here]

Feed My lambs...tend My sheep...feed My sheep... Jn 21:15-17

28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20

1 The elders among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock. `1 Pet 5

Modern day 'evangelism' has minimized the gospel down to a formula whereby anyone can obtain immortality simply by following the instructions and repeating the incantation. If you removed the cross from the preaching it'd be pure paganism.

 

[Dave G]

I see that Dave was asking Dave a rhetorical question.
As you already know, the answer is in the Scriptures, my friend:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).

God takes something that the world of men thinks is foolish, and uses that to save* His people.
* Notify them of Him having chosen them in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) and choosing them to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).


And yes, I agree that many preachers and teachers ( especially nowadays ) have taken the Gospel and watered it down to a formula,
and not an announcement or declaration of facts as Paul did.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Mark 1:15. "The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the Gospel."
What's this fellow doing giving out Gospel invitations? Doesn't He know that preachers are only supposed to make declarations and give out facts?

2 Corinthians 5:20. 'Now then, as ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us, we implore [you], be reconciled to God.'
N.B. The word 'you' is not found in any Greek manuscript SFAIK.

 

[Dave G]

Mark 1:15. "The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the Gospel."
What's this fellow doing giving out Gospel invitations? Doesn't He know that preachers are only supposed to make declarations and give out facts?

Wasn't He commanding Israel to repent and believe in this passage, and commanding them as their Lord and Master...
especially because He was standing right in front of them and they were still under the Law of Moses that they had agreed to obey per Exodus and Deuteronomy?

Yes, I agree that He invited Israel, and they, for the most part, turned Him down.
See the parable of the wedding ( Matthew 22:1-14, Luke 14:16-24 ), my friend.

Many are called, but few are chosen out of Israel, just as this tells us:

" Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 for he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth." ( Romans 9:27-28 ).

2 Corinthians 5:20. 'Now then, as ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us, we implore [you], be reconciled to God.'

Isn't this spoken to those who had already believed, and Paul was imploring those that were already reconciled to Him ( and their trespasses not imputed to them ) to be reconciled to Him in their minds and in their actions?

" And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." ( 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 ).

Who is the "world" and the "us" here that was not having their trespasses imputed to them,
and that, per verse 18, He has ( past tense ) reconciled to Him by Jesus Christ?

The reason I ask, is that God has already reconciled believers ( "us" ) to Himself by Jesus Christ,
so why is Paul asking those that had already been reconciled, to be reconciled?

How could they be any less reconciled, unless it was because they weren't focusing on the fact that they already were, and weren't being mindful of it?

 

[Dave G]

@Martin Marprelate :

I don't see the Gospel being an "invitation" directed at all men, Steve,
and I definitely do not see it being declared properly by men like Charles Finney... or anyone else who presented it the way that he did.
To me it's a declaration of facts, just as Paul gave in Acts of the Apostles 17:16-34, and we see Peter giving in Acts of the Apostles 2:1-40 to the Jews.

That is why I am firmly convinced that God's preachers are to preach God's words ( without embellishing them with our own, or our own pleas for unbelievers to come to Christ in repentance ), and let that do the work...
Preach Christ crucified for sinners, and let Him call whom He will.

For now ( and until the Lord shows me ),
I don't see anywhere in the Bible that the preaching of the cross is an invitation to all, but that it has a purpose...
It is a stumbling block to the Jews and is foolishness to the Gentiles;
But to those that are called, both Jews and Gentiles, it is the power of God ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).


May God bless you sir.

 

[kyredneck]

Mark 1:15. "The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the Gospel."
What's this fellow doing giving out Gospel invitations? Doesn't He know that preachers are only supposed to make declarations and give out facts?

Evidently you don't know an 'invitation' when you see one because that's NOT one, AND, you left off a huge component of the formula to get 'saved':

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

According to "this fellow" the 'formula' to be saved includes repentance, faith, and baptism.

[add]

...and @Martin Marprelate, that's also not an invitation from "this fellow", it's a statement of fact much like Jn 3:16.

Wasn't He commanding Israel to repent in these passages, and commanding them as their Lord and Master...

Absolutely:

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Evidently you don't know an 'invitation' when you see one because that's NOT one, AND, you left off a huge component of the formula to get 'saved':

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

According to "this fellow" the 'formula' to be saved includes repentance, faith, and baptism.

[add]

...and @Martin Marprelate, that's also not an invitation from "this fellow", it's a statement of fact much like Jn 3:16.



Absolutely:

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10

Who are the lost sheep of the house of Israel then? Does this not significantly site a Jewish population vs Gentiles?

 

[kyredneck]

Who are the lost sheep of the house of Israel then?

Compare Ezekiel 34 with John 10, excerpts:

"For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I myself, even I, will search for my sheep, and will seek them out.",

with

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep./I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,"

Does this not significantly site a Jewish population vs Gentiles?

Don't feel 'left out', it's just that as 'The Prophet' He came only to Israel:

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15

...reiterated by Paul:

8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers, Ro 15

Gill:
"...“I am not sent, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel; as a priest, or as a Saviour and Redeemer, he was sent to make satisfaction and atonement for the sins of all God's elect, and to obtain eternal redemption and salvation for all of them, whether Jews or Gentiles; but as a prophet, in the discharge of his own personal ministry, he was sent by his Father only to the Jews; he was the "minister of the circumcision", Romans 15:8 that is, a minister to the circumcised Jews…..”

You ever thought what the distinction between these two might be?:

7 but contrariwise, when they saw that I had been intrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, even as Peter with the gospel of the circumcision Gal 2

 

[Martin Marprelate]

8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers, Ro 15

9 and that the Gentiles might glory in God for His mercy, as it is written......'

That of course is why Paul tells the Jews and Gentiles who made up the Roman church (and us, of course) that they should
7 receive one another, just as Christ received us, to the glory of God.' There is only one people of God; believing Jew and believing Gentile together in Christ (Isaiah 48:5-6; Galatians 3:7). You need to quit your Dispensationalism and stop plucking verses out of the air without studying the context.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Evidently you don't know an 'invitation' when you see one because that's NOT one, AND, you left off a huge component of the formula to get 'saved':

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

According to "this fellow" the 'formula' to be saved includes repentance, faith, and baptism.

Well it is an invitation- see below, and pulling verses 14 chapters apart to try and make some point or other is not very impressive. I'm a Baptist! Of course I believe that people should be baptized, but I'm not obliged to state it every time I post.

...and @Martin Marprelate, that's also not an invitation from "this fellow", it's a statement of fact much like Jn 3:16.

The first part of the verse is a statement, but the second part is firstly a command. "Repent and believe the Gospel." If you think that's a statement, your grammar is almost as bad as your theology. It is an imperative, a command from the King of kings, and it is delivered to everyone who hears, and to us who read it. It is therefore the duty of all men everywhere (Acts of the Apostles 17:30) to obey it.
Secondly, it is a gracious invitation. All men and women can enter in to the kingdom of God if they will repent, and believe the first part of the verse. Therefore it is also the duty of us who are ambassadors for Christ to spread the gracious message everywhere (Mark 16:16)

 

[AustinC]

@1689Dave :
"Why preach if only the born-again can discern the truth in it?" [here]

Feed My lambs...tend My sheep...feed My sheep... Jn 21:15-17

28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20

1 The elders among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock. `1 Pet 5

Modern day 'evangelism' has minimized the gospel down to a formula whereby anyone can obtain immortality simply by following the instructions and repeating the incantation. If you removed the cross from the preaching it'd be pure paganism.

Moreso, if you remove the warnings to remain diligent, you teach an antinomian doctrine of the devil.
Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
Hebrews 3:12-19 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, and Calvinist writers that I am familiar with would say that warnings like the above against a wavering faith or unbelief are part of the "means" as they would say for either salvation or perseverance of a saint, depending upon who is reading it. I can see how it might be confusing but they would say that warning people that they better continue in belief or not fall away is not contradictory with a belief that a true saint will indeed persevere and not fall away.

 

[kyredneck]

9 and that the Gentiles might glory in God for His mercy, as it is written......'

That of course is why Paul tells the Jews and Gentiles who made up the Roman church (and us, of course) that they should
7 receive one another, just as Christ received us, to the glory of God.' There is only one people of God; believing Jew and believing Gentile together in Christ (Isaiah 48:5-6; Galatians 3:7).

K. Agree. Where'd that come from? I've not said anything contradictory to these truths. Is your imagination working overtime again Martin?

You need to quit your Dispensationalism and stop plucking verses out of the air without studying the context.

True to form, Reformed Robots quick to make false accusations. Is that all you have? I suppose you think you're being cute, calling me a dispy.

 

[AustinC]

Yes, and Calvinist writers that I am familiar with would say that warnings like the above against a wavering faith or unbelief are part of the "means" as they would say for either salvation or perseverance of a saint, depending upon who is reading it. I can see how it might be confusing but they would say that warning people that they better continue in belief or not fall away is not contradictory with a belief that a true saint will indeed persevere and not fall away.

The author is never suggesting that a Christian can lose their salvation. The author is imploring those in the church to always be considering whether the Spirit of God has made them alive in Christ. Falling away would indicate there was never an authentic redemption in the first place. Like the Israelites in the wilderness, there were many who left Egypt, but never truly believed in the promises of God. They were a part of Israel as a community, but they were never children of the promise. The writer to the Hebrews is warning our congregants to check themselves daily to continually persevere in faith.

 

[kyredneck]

Well it is an invitation

No it's not. Here's a bona fide 'invitation':

28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11

I'm a Baptist! Of course I believe that people should be baptized

When you're preaching to get them saved, do you tell them they must be baptized?

Mark 16:16, Jesus plainly states, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

The first part of the verse is a statement, but the second part is firstly a command. "Repent and believe the Gospel." If you think that's a statement, your grammar is almost as bad as your theology.

Again, where'd this come from? I totally agree with Dave G's assessment. Please, Martin, calm down and control your imagination.

Wasn't He commanding Israel to repent and believe in this passage, and commanding them as their Lord and Master...
especially because He was standing right in front of them and they were still under the Law of Moses that they had agreed to obey per Exodus and Deuteronomy?

Lord willing, I'll return to 'duty faith' topic later. Duty calls me now here in the temporal realm.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

9 and that the Gentiles might glory in God for His mercy, as it is written......'

That of course is why Paul tells the Jews and Gentiles who made up the Roman church (and us, of course) that they should
7 receive one another, just as Christ received us, to the glory of God.' There is only one people of God; believing Jew and believing Gentile together in Christ (Isaiah 48:5-6; Galatians 3:7). You need to quit your Dispensationalism and stop plucking verses out of the air without studying the context.

Well gentlemen and brothers, I’m not trying to cause a rift and not between two men who have been kind enough to provide me with valuable instruction. All I was attempting to do is understand scriptural discourse that points to a bias for the Jewish people… see I struggle still with those scriptural references.

And excuse me Steve, but I’m not quite sure why you would use “Dispensationalism” as a reference point? I’ve known KRN for a while and I’ve never seen him even remotely move in that direction. Let’s all agree then to our shared Christian principles, ie the Lord is creator and sovereign, we Gentiles have been grafted into the vine, adopted into the family. Furthermore, regeneration is a work of God by which a spiritually dead human being is brought to life in Christ ( John 5:24), having been given a new nature in which what was once a heart of stone now becomes a heart of flesh…praise God!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

And excuse me Steve, but I’m not quite sure why you would use “Dispensationalism” as a reference point?

Slicing up the Bible to divide one part of it from another is Dispensationalism. The idea that some parts of the N.T. don't apply to me because I'm not Jewish is Dispensational teaching.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Slicing up the Bible to divide one part of it from another is Dispensationalism. The idea that some parts of the N.T. don't apply to me because I'm not Jewish is Dispensational teaching.

Is that not Antonomianiasm … think my spelling is wrong but please set me straight. Apparently Kentucky sees Dispy as a slight.

 

[kyredneck]

Slicing up the Bible to divide one part of it from another is Dispensationalism.

Agree, totally. But I've not done that. Your imagination is working overtime again Martin and causing you to jump to conclusions, again. You're 'over anxious'....to win? What is it that you're so anxious about?

The idea that some parts of the N.T. don't apply to me because I'm not Jewish is Dispensational teaching.

When Jesus Himself says, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel", and Paul reiterates, "Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision", it demands the application of 'audience relevance' to everything Christ taught. This is definitely NOT a Dispensational tenet:

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.

3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought. - Charles Hodge

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Agree, totally. But I've not done that. Your imagination is working overtime again Martin and causing you to jump to conclusions, again. You're 'over anxious'....to win? What is it that you're so anxious about?

I think you'll find that your position is nothing else but Dispensationalism.

When Jesus Himself says, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel",

Do you not understand? The woman shows herself to be one of the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and the Good Shepherd has trekked all the way to Tyre and Sidon to find her. She recognized the Lord Jesus as the Messiah ('Son of David'), worships Him and calls Him Lord. 'Know ye therefore that those who are of faith, they [and by implication, they alone] the same are the sons of Abraham' (Galatians 3:7)'

and Paul reiterates, "Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision", it demands the application of 'audience relevance' to everything Christ taught. This is definitely NOT a Dispensational tenet:

It definitely is. It's a drag when I have to repeat myself over again because you won't address the context. Here you are again. Romans 15:7-9 (NKJV). 'Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant (or minister) to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written......'
The Jews and the Gentiles in the church at Rome are to accept one another because Christ has become a servant, not only to the Jews to confirm the promises to the Patriarchs but also that the Gentiles might have cause to glorify God. 'Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also' (Romans 3:29). This is in line with Isaiah 49:5-6, and what Christ has been, He always is and always will be. 'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.'

1.

The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

So long such interpretation does not contradict No. 2 below.

2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.

3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought. - Charles Hodge

Amen!