Seeking truth about "tongues"...

[lugnut1009]

Ok, to start with, I am not a theologian nor do I have a doctrite in anything so please spare me the long winded, big words that I've read so much on here. Please, anyone that reply's, please keep it simple so anyone that can read would be able to understand.

Now that is out of the way, I am and have been saved for many years. I have spent time in several different denominations of churches and have decided to join the Baptist denomination because of the ones that I have been a witness to, I have never heard anything preached or taught at a Baptist church that I did not agree with or couldn't be backed (in context) with scripture.

Let me begin with, I believe God is the same now as He was from the beginning and the same He will be forever. In believing that, I believe that He can do the same things for us today that He did for the people in the bible. Including the gift of tongues, healing, etc... I did spend about 10 years in a Pentecostal church, actually a Church of God. There were just a couple things I didn't agree with, and somethings I think Baptists in general could learn from them, but recently the Lord has laid on my heart to find the truth in His word about the "utterance" or speaking in tongues that you hear so often in a Pentecostal church. I have been reading Acts and it seems that, on the day of Pentecost, the disciples were given the gift of tongues that used other known languages by God. In other portions of Acts, it mentions that the Holy Spirit was given to someone with the evidence of tongues. I read in one instance that they spoke in tongues like the first time, which made me think of other known languages.

Can anyone shed any light on this issue for me? Maybe a Pastor that has been to seminary and can enlighten me on something I am unaware of? Thank you in advance.

P.S. - I'm simply searching for the truth, not the view of a specific denomination.

 

[Don]

I'm not a pastor, but I have studied the topic. I also stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.... :laugh:

When you say "can enlighten you on something you're not aware of," what do you mean?

For example, I agree with everything you posted. Acts 2 specifically identifies that the languages spoken were languages known by the hearers, who told each other that they heard the apostles saying the same thing but in their own individual, different languages. The other times the gift is spoken of in Acts, this is not identified; but when you're writing something and you've already identified it once, you don't typically identify it again--unless it's changed or is somehow different. Because we don't see a different explanation, we assume that it's similar to the original use.

Where you're gonna run into trouble is when folks here start talking about the letter to the Corinthians and comparing it to what happened in Acts.

 

[lugnut1009]

Exactly, like in this article I just found: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=474

I guess this article really puts it all together that one has to make the determination himself with prayer and Godly understanding. Seems it's too miss-understood and debated. My flesh wants to say "What good could come from someone uttering something that just sounds like repeated jibberish?" But also I know that my mind doesn't operate on God's level and that I should take an objective look at this. After all, it's not for me to judge anyone. I was under the impression when I attended the Church of God that it was something somewhat uncontrollable, or at least that you allowed to happen to you.

But, on the other hand, if it is a known language, then wouldn't it just make sense that there be someone who speaks that language present that God is speaking to through this person? I mean that seems to be the purpose on the day of Pentecost right?

I don't know, sometimes I feel like me attempting to understand this outside of denominationalized beliefs is futile... :BangHead: Meaning some Baptist churches seem to preach that the gift of tongues is just ridiculous and a joke. And Pentecostal believing churches seem to be on the other extreme and think that unless you are perfectly sinless and have the evidence of speaking in tongues then you don't have the Holy Spirit living in you. I have a hard time with both sides of this. I know God could take my next breath away, much less cause me to speak an unknown language to me, but I also believe that God instills His "Comforter" in us at the moment of salvation.

 

[evangelist-7]

There have been several threads on tongues, and I'm sure you'll find both sides there.

Those who have been to seminaries are not experts on this subject at all
because seminaries teach against tongues and the Pentecostal experience.

I can promise you that Scripture backs up the spiritual experiences that people have today
concerning tongues and the spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12.

Good Luck!
.

 

[lugnut1009]

There have been several threads on tongues, and I'm sure you'll find both sides there.

Those who have been to seminaries are not experts on this subject at all
because seminaries teach against tongues and the Pentecostal experience.

I can promise you that Scripture backs up the spiritual experiences that people have today
concerning tongues and the spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12.

Good Luck!
.

Thank you for your input. I did try a few searches before I posted a new thread, most seem to talk way over my head and use words common people like myself would have to lookup in a dictionary.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ok, to start with, I am not a theologian nor do I have a doctrite in anything so please spare me the long winded, big words that I've read so much on here. Please, anyone that reply's, please keep it simple so anyone that can read would be able to understand.

Now that is out of the way, I am and have been saved for many years. I have spent time in several different denominations of churches and have decided to join the Baptist denomination because of the ones that I have been a witness to, I have never heard anything preached or taught at a Baptist church that I did not agree with or couldn't be backed (in context) with scripture.

Let me begin with, I believe God is the same now as He was from the beginning and the same He will be forever. In believing that, I believe that He can do the same things for us today that He did for the people in the bible. Including the gift of tongues, healing, etc... I did spend about 10 years in a Pentecostal church, actually a Church of God. There were just a couple things I didn't agree with, and somethings I think Baptists in general could learn from them, but recently the Lord has laid on my heart to find the truth in His word about the "utterance" or speaking in tongues that you hear so often in a Pentecostal church. I have been reading Acts and it seems that, on the day of Pentecost, the disciples were given the gift of tongues that used other known languages by God. In other portions of Acts, it mentions that the Holy Spirit was given to someone with the evidence of tongues. I read in one instance that they spoke in tongues like the first time, which made me think of other known languages.

Can anyone shed any light on this issue for me? Maybe a Pastor that has been to seminary and can enlighten me on something I am unaware of? Thank you in advance.

P.S. - I'm simply searching for the truth, not the view of a specific denomination.

I started out in a Pentecostal baptism in the Spirit speaking in tongues group before I became a Baptist by convictions.

I sought the baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues as sincere as one could. I had no one to bias me against it. It was the Lord that led me away from it through simple study of His Word.

There is a differnce between ecstatic utterances and Biblical tongues. Esctatic utterances have been around prior to the writing of the New Testament and characterized the mystery religions and many false religions in the world then and today (Hinduism, Mormons, New Agism, etc.).

The Bible says that in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. Acts 2 is the Pentecostal experience of speaking in Biblical Tongues. Acts 2 provides THREE witnesses that Biblically define the nature of Biblical Tongues in distinction from ecstatic utterances.

1. Acts 2:6 - heard them speak in his own language [Gr. dialektos]
2. Acts 2:8 - our own tongue,[Gr. dialektos] wherein we were born?
3. Acts 2:11 - in our tongues [Gr. glossa]the wonderful works of God.


Luke bent over backwards to provide the correct understanding of the Biblical gift of tongues when God first gave this gift. The Greek term "dialektos" is where we get our English word "dialect" and "glossa" is the base term used consistently from this point forward of this Biblical gift.

He then proceeds to name the countries where these NATIVE DIALECTS come from - Acts 2:10-11.

In other words the Holy Spirit is explicitly telling the reader in the clearest possible way that glossalalia is the ability to speak in known human dialects without training. Once defined clearly and explicitly and repeatedly at its introduction to Biblical history, then writers simply make reference to it from that point forward.

It seems that in Corinth where many mystery religions were present and ecstatic utterances had been prevelant among the prostitutes in religious service (1 Cor. 11:1-2) that such a practice invaded the church at Corinth. Significantly in this context of confusion Paul takes the time to provide the Biblical purpose for the Gift of Tongues and its proper use in the church (1 Cor 14:19-22).

1. It is not a gift designed for believers but a sign gift for unbelievers
2. It is not a gift designed for the "unlearned" unbeliever - gentiles
3. It is specifically designed for Jewish unbelievers who are learned in the Scriptures.
4. It is a sign to Israel that their anticipated Messiah, the "rest" has come and a warning of impending destruction if they reject this sign - Isa. 26:12-14
5. It is a missionary sign to the Jews - Acts 2 and as a missionary who went to the Jews first Paul used it scripturaly and more than all the corinthian church combined.
6. It must not be used in the church outside of very strict guidelines (not at all if no interpeter; three at most, one at a time]
7. Prophecy (preaching forth the scriptures] is to be preferred in the church as the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to convict the lost.
8. The gift of tongues will cease of itself prior to the cessation of revelatory gifts - I Cor. 13:8-9.
9. Such gifts were imparted by the laying on of apostolic hands - 2 Cor. 12:12; Rom. 1:11; Acts 6:6; 8:14-17; 19:6; etc. and ceased with the apostolic era and the judgment upon Israel for rejecting the Messiah and this sign.
10.

What we have today is ecstatic utterances that characterize false religions today.

The Roman Catholic nun who devoutly worships Mary can join in with Benny Hinn in a ecstatic utterance while observing the mass together.

The Bible explicitly warns that in the last days, beyond the Apostolic era that there will be a counterfit apostolic like sign movement (Mt. 24:24-25; 2 Thes. 2:9-12). These are "LYING" signs because they confirm those who teach false doctrines (mass, name and claim it, Word of Faith doctrine, etc.). The HOly Spirit is not the author of CONFUSION. This "tongue" movement today joins together the worst of heretics.

 

[lugnut1009]

The HOly Spirit is not the author of CONFUSION.

I would have to strongly agree with this statement!! Thank you. These utterances are very confusing and thus I say that it can't be the Holy Spirit working through these people. If it were real, and it is as they say a holy language between one and God alone, then wouldn't it be done in private? Like the Bible tells us to pray in private and not in public?

You would have to agree though that the Pentecostal believing churches do know how to really have church! Baptist's in general have a tendency to be very uptight and rigid. I don't think I've heard an "Amen" or anything in a Baptist church, much less anyone raising their hands praising the Lord. I wish we could all break outside of these denominational boundaries and just worship God. Helping each other grow by what the word says, setting these things aside. And if we disagree on something like this, just look over it, as the Pharisee Gamaliel said "for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38, 39

 

[The Biblicist]

I would have to strongly agree with this statement!! Thank you. These utterances are very confusing and thus I say that it can't be the Holy Spirit working through these people. If it were real, and it is as they say a holy language between one and God alone, then wouldn't it be done in private? Like the Bible tells us to pray in private and not in public?

Yes, there is no more utter confusion in any religion on the face of the earth than in the Pentecostal movement.

You would have to agree though that the Pentecostal believing churches do know how to really have church! Baptist's in general have a tendency to be very uptight and rigid. I don't think I've heard an "Amen" or anything in a Baptist church, much less anyone raising their hands praising the Lord. I wish we could all break outside of these denominational boundaries and just worship God. Helping each other grow by what the word says, setting these things aside. And if we disagree on something like this, just look over it, as the Pharisee Gamaliel said "for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38, 39

I believe this is a reactionary problem by Baptists to the excesses of Pentecostalism. They don't want to identify with such confusion. Older Baptist generations (1600-1950's) were much more expressive but in decency and in order. Many Baptist churches today the same is true but many it is not true.

However, the primary characteristic of the Lord's churches is that his "house of God" is the "pillar and ground of the truth." One cannot worship "in spirit" if they are not also worshipping "in truth."

To worship Him "in Spirit" means:

1. First be "in the Spirit" by regeneration - Rom. 8:8-9
2. Second under the leadership of the Spirit - Eph. 5:18
3. Manifesting the "fruit" of the Spirit - Gal. 5:22
4. ready to exercise whatever "gift" of the Spirit - Rom. 12:5-10
5. All within the framework of the Word of the Spirit

 

[lugnut1009]

Thank you for your Biblically based insight. :godisgood:

 

[Don]

I would have to strongly agree with this statement!! Thank you. These utterances are very confusing and thus I say that it can't be the Holy Spirit working through these people. If it were real, and it is as they say a holy language between one and God alone, then wouldn't it be done in private? Like the Bible tells us to pray in private and not in public?

You would have to agree though that the Pentecostal believing churches do know how to really have church! Baptist's in general have a tendency to be very uptight and rigid. I don't think I've heard an "Amen" or anything in a Baptist church, much less anyone raising their hands praising the Lord. I wish we could all break outside of these denominational boundaries and just worship God. Helping each other grow by what the word says, setting these things aside. And if we disagree on something like this, just look over it, as the Pharisee Gamaliel said "for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38, 39

Well - you've apparently never visited the Baptist churches I've been a part of. Lots of "Amen's", and sometimes it can get pretty close to bapti-costal.

 

[lugnut1009]

Well - you've apparently never visited the Baptist churches I've been a part of. Lots of "Amen's", and sometimes it can get pretty close to bapti-costal.

Sounds like I would like it there! HA!!

 

[awaken]

Ok, to start with, I am not a theologian nor do I have a doctrite in anything so please spare me the long winded, big words that I've read so much on here. Please, anyone that reply's, please keep it simple so anyone that can read would be able to understand.

Now that is out of the way, I am and have been saved for many years. I have spent time in several different denominations of churches and have decided to join the Baptist denomination because of the ones that I have been a witness to, I have never heard anything preached or taught at a Baptist church that I did not agree with or couldn't be backed (in context) with scripture.

Let me begin with, I believe God is the same now as He was from the beginning and the same He will be forever. In believing that, I believe that He can do the same things for us today that He did for the people in the bible. Including the gift of tongues, healing, etc... I did spend about 10 years in a Pentecostal church, actually a Church of God. There were just a couple things I didn't agree with, and somethings I think Baptists in general could learn from them, but recently the Lord has laid on my heart to find the truth in His word about the "utterance" or speaking in tongues that you hear so often in a Pentecostal church. I have been reading Acts and it seems that, on the day of Pentecost, the disciples were given the gift of tongues that used other known languages by God. In other portions of Acts, it mentions that the Holy Spirit was given to someone with the evidence of tongues. I read in one instance that they spoke in tongues like the first time, which made me think of other known languages.

Can anyone shed any light on this issue for me? Maybe a Pastor that has been to seminary and can enlighten me on something I am unaware of? Thank you in advance.

P.S. - I'm simply searching for the truth, not the view of a specific denomination.

Maybe you can start with searching out the purpose of tongues...

 

[DHK]

Maybe you can start with searching out the purpose of tongues...

A sign to the unbelieving Jews. 1Cor.14:21,22--ceased in the 1st Century.
A sign for the apostles and their message. 2Cor.12:12--ceased at the end of the 1st century.
A revelatory gift. 1Cor.13:8. Revelation completed. Ceased at the end of the 1st century.

In all cases in the NT it was an actual language. "How hear we every man in our language, wherein we were born."
Today's "tongues" are not languages, cannot be properly interpreted, can be demonstrated by those that have any linguistic knowledge that they are not languages at all but simple gibberish. They are not of God.

 

[awaken]

A sign to the unbelieving Jews. 1Cor.14:21,22--ceased in the 1st Century.

If they were a sign to theunbelieving Jews, why would they cease? We still have unbelieving Jews today?

A sign for the apostles and their message. 2Cor.12:12--ceased at the end of the 1st century.

No proof of them ceasing from scripture...and THE message is still being preached

A revelatory gift. 1Cor.13:8. Revelation completed. Ceased at the end of the 1st century.

Where do you get they are revelatory from that scripture? And when does it say they will cease?

In all cases in the NT it was an actual language. "How hear we every man in our language, wherein we were born."

I do believe they are true languages

Today's "tongues" are not languages, cannot be properly interpreted, can be demonstrated by those that have any linguistic knowledge that they are not languages at all but simple gibberish. They are not of God.

Nowhere in scriptures is this a proof that they have ceased!

 

[DHK]

If they were a sign to theunbelieving Jews, why would they cease? We still have unbelieving Jews today?

Read 1Cor.14:21,22 again. It speaks to the Jews as a nation.
Tongues were given to the NATION of Israel as a sign. They refused it, as they did their Messiah and were thus judged. That judgment came in 70 A.D. when Titus destroyed the Temple and the NATION of Israel has been scattered since then.
Even if it were for today, the gift is given to the local church, as is indicated by 1Cor.12. How many unbelieving Jews do you have in your church. If none then you know it is not for today and your church is out of order. You do not believe the Word of God.

No proof of them ceasing from scripture...and THE message is still being preached

Another denial of the Word of God.
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Where do you get they are revelatory from that scripture? And when does it say they will cease?

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
--The signs and wonders, the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the Apostles as is stated clearly here. They were given to authenticate the apostles as God's messengers, and the message of the apostles as being from God.
--Your unbelief is astounding. The apostles are dead; the gifts have ceased.

I do believe they are true languages

Then prove it. What foreign languages do you speak.

Nowhere in scriptures is this a proof that they have ceased!

Of course it is. Gibberish is not tongues and is unknown in the Bible. The gibberish you speak is found in history among paganism and cults, not in Christianity. This so-called tongues did not start up in connection with Christianity until 1905. Before that it was unknown. It is not in the Scriptures.

 

[awaken]

Read 1Cor.14:21,22 again. It speaks to the Jews as a nation.
Tongues were given to the NATION of Israel as a sign. They refused it, as they did their Messiah and were thus judged. That judgment came in 70 A.D. when Titus destroyed the Temple and the NATION of Israel has been scattered since then.
Even if it were for today, the gift is given to the local church, as is indicated by 1Cor.12. How many unbelieving Jews do you have in your church. If none then you know it is not for today and your church is out of order. You do not believe the Word of God.

I am not going to get in another personal bashing with you DHK. First you say they were given to the nation of Israel, then you say they were given to the church????

Another denial of the Word of God. 2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

I never said signs were not wrought among them! What you miss out from scriptures is that it was not just the apostles that spoke in tongues! So the purpose of tongues can not be limited to the apostles!

Where do you get they are revelatory from that scripture? And when does it say they will cease?

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
--The signs and wonders, the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the Apostles as is stated clearly here. They were given to authenticate the apostles as God's messengers, and the message of the apostles as being from God.
--Your unbelief is astounding. The apostles are dead; the gifts have ceased.

Again! it was not JUST for the apostles.
I agree with the Word of God. The Word says God bear the witness through those that heard. What you again keep leaving out is that it was not just the apostles that God manifested through!

Then prove it. What foreign languages do you speak.

This thread is not about me and my personal walk...stick to scriptures...

Of course it is. Gibberish is not tongues and is unknown in the Bible. The gibberish you speak is found in history among paganism and cults, not in Christianity. This so-called tongues did not start up in connection with Christianity until 1905. Before that it was unknown. It is not in the Scriptures.

Stick to scriptures to prove tongues!

 

[DHK]

I am not going to get in another personal bashing with you DHK. First you say they were given to the nation of Israel, then you say they were given to the church????

You obviously haven't read 1Cor.14:21,22 which I asked you to read carefully. Those verses were written by Paul to the believers at Corinth, for their instruction. ALL the gifts of the Spirit were given to the local church. The purpose of speaking in tongues, by an apostle, was to show unbelieving Israel that salvation had come to the Gentiles, and if they would not receive this message of God prophesied in Isaiah 28, judgment would soon follow. Judgment came in 70 A.D.
It wasn't the nation of Israel that spoke in tongues. I thought you were smart enough to know that.

I never said signs were not wrought among them! What you miss out from scriptures is that it was not just the apostles that spoke in tongues! So the purpose of tongues can not be limited to the apostles!

You can deny the Scriptures all you want. But this was one of the PRIMARY purposes of tongues. It was to authenticate the apostles and their message.

Again! it was not JUST for the apostles.

It was one of their PRIMARY purposes.

I agree with the Word of God. The Word says God bear the witness through those that heard. What you again keep leaving out is that it was not just the apostles that God manifested through!

Those that witnessed; those that heard, were the apostles. That is what the passage is referring to. The audience to whom the writer is addressing are second generation believers. They refer back to the apostles as the first generation--eye-witnesses of Christ.

This thread is not about me and my personal walk...stick to scriptures...

Stick to scriptures to prove tongues!

I have. You have given almost no Scripture in return. In fact it is obvious that you have failed to read the Scripture I have asked you to read!!
You don't speak in tongues, or you would be able to tell me the languages you speak in. What are they?
You are no better than Charles Taze Russell who when called on in court to demonstrate that which he claimed he could do; he could not. He was charged with fraud.
Shouldn't you be charged with the same thing?

 

[awaken]

You obviously haven't read 1Cor.14:21,22 which I asked you to read carefully. Those verses were written by Paul to the believers at Corinth, for their instruction.

This we agree...

ALL the gifts of the Spirit were given to the local church.

This we agree

The purpose of speaking in tongues, by an apostle, was to show unbelieving Israel that salvation had come to the Gentiles, and if they would not receive this message of God prophesied in Isaiah 28, judgment would soon follow. Judgment came in 70 A.D.
It wasn't the nation of Israel that spoke in tongues. I thought you were smart enough to know that.

Can you show where you are getting tongues by an apostles was a sign? I do not see it limited to the apostles.

You can deny the Scriptures all you want. But this was one of the PRIMARY purposes of tongues. It was to authenticate the apostles and their message.

I have never denied what the Word says about ONE of the purpose of tongues! What I questioned was why you keep limiting tongues to just apostles?

It was one of their PRIMARY purposes.

THe manifestation of any of the gifts including tongues was to profit ALL. Again! It was not just for the apostles!

Those that witnessed; those that heard, were the apostles. That is what the passage is referring to. The audience to whom the writer is addressing are second generation believers. They refer back to the apostles as the first generation--eye-witnesses of Christ.

You added apostles to the scriptures in that context! More than just the apostles manifested signs and wonders! More than just the apostles was there on the Day of Pentecost!

I have. You have given almost no Scripture in return. In fact it is obvious that you have failed to read the Scripture I have asked you to read!!
You don't speak in tongues, or you would be able to tell me the languages you speak in. What are they?You are no better than Charles Taze Russell who when called on in court to demonstrate that which he claimed he could do; he could not. He was charged with fraud.
Shouldn't you be charged with the same thing?[/

This debate will go so much smoother if you would keep personal attacks out of it!

 

[awaken]

Conclusion of the last few post would be that not only the apostles spoke in tongues.

I agree with the OP! But what most get confused about is what were they doing on the Day of Pentecost and in Acts 10 when they spoke in tongues?

 

[awaken]

Do you know that all but two of the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit were operational in the Old Testament and the Gospels? What is so unique about speaking in tongues that God reserved it just for us who are born again of His spirit?