Setting the record straight

Thanks for your post, Pioneer. I think you have a balanced approach to this issue which sees the problems in either "system" and avoids their extremes.

 

Hi Pioneer:

"I reject both Calvinism and Arminianism as damnable heresies. Both systems of thought extend their views of soteriology beyond what the scriptures teach. I wish to set the record straight about what I believe concerning salvation and election."

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Well, Pioneer, that is quite an indictment of the pure gospel taught by Jesus, Paul and on almost every page of scripture.

"Arminianism refers especially to the doctrine that predestination is conditioned upon man's free response to grace -- as taught by Arminius, the Remonstrants, John Wesley--Wycliffe Bible Dictionary."

Of course, Arminiaism is by far the most popular doctrine in the church today. I guess, because it glorifies man and puts God in the position of depending on the "free choice" of fallen, depraved, God-hating, sinners before His plans can be achieved. Some Sovereign God it is that depends on something, anything outside of Himself for anything -- especially man.

You reject Calvinism and Arminianism and then state the case for Arminianism in your statements. I understand how hard it is for man to give up their claim that they can do something, anything, for their salvation. That is fallen human nature. Just think of the man-dishonoring propostion that God is the one that saves, and not depraved man. I mean, how can a God of love (Jesus loves everyone, you know) die a propitiatory sacrifice on the cross, then not give fallen, depraved men the "free choice" to accept that sacrifice. We wouldn't want to impose on man's free will, regardless of what the cost to Jesus Christs was, would we?

I don't know. It seems absurd to me that the Sovereign God of the Universe could subject the death of His Son, the second person of the Trinity, to the choice of man to decide whether that sacrifice would be effective or not. That seems to me, to put the "free choice" of man as the grounds of our salvation, instead of the sacrifice of Christ. What if not one single person "chose" to accept what Christ died for? Christ would have died in vain? His perfect, infinite life and death would have been a total waste because man rejected his sacrifice? To me, that is so blasphemous and man-glorifying and God dis-honoring I don't see how a Christian could hold that position. And I do not overstate the issue. If the atonement, to be effective, depends on the "free choice" of depraved man, then the possibility is there that no one would accept the sacrifice. In fact, if for the sacrifice to be effective, fallen, depraved man would have to "accept" it, that is exactly what would have happened. Remember, no one seeks after God, no not one.
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"#1 - Mankind has inherited the sinful nature from Adam and all men are born dead in trespasses and sins. This "deadness" means that man is unable to live a righteous life on his own no matter how hard he tries to do right"

---------------------------------------------Well, Pioneer, I was going to answer your points, point by point, but this is going to get way too long, so for now, I will stop with paragraph #1. Just a few comments.

If all man has inherited sin and are dead in trespass and sin, which they did and are, where do you get "free will" from? If, all without exception enter this world in sin, which they do, how are we "free"? To be born into sin and sentenced to death seems to me to deny "free will" from the beginning. Please explain to me what you mean.
You say man is UNABLE to live a righteous life ON HIS OWN NO MATTER HOW HARD HE TRIES.

I agree with that statement completely. But where is man's "free will" in that statement? Why can't man, if he is "free" and the captain of his ship, and a free moral agent, not live a righteous life? Why doesn't he just "choose" to? You say man is UNABLE to. Agreed!!! But why do you make that statement if man is "free" to do or not to do. If he is UNABLE no matter HOW HARD HE TRIES, what are you talking about? How can you state that a man is "free" and UNABLE in the same sentence?

I think the whole problem is as old as Adam and Eve. Man just cannot accept the fact that their salvation was provided for them, totally without them, without their permission, without their "accepting" the atonement and totally done by another -- Jesus Christ. You are in the majority in believing that man's "free choice" is the grounds for a persons salvation. However, may I respectfully submit, that that is what is wrong with the church today. What you hear in the pulpits today is a God that cannot do what he says he will do. He is a defeated savior, a disappointed Holy Spirit and Sovereign God that can't make plans for the future because a fallen, depraved sinner might not let Him achieve what he wants.


Witness the obscenity of begging people to "accept" Jesus as savior. I mean, poor God, He wants to save EVERYBODY, but depraved sinners won't let Him. Poor, poor defeated God. The creature is controlling the Creator. Maybe if God could take a course in Positive Thinking He could presuade more depraved sinners to "accept" Him. Poor defeated, ineffective Sovereign God.

Enough!! I say all these things because I feel so strongly that -- here comes the C word -- Calvinism is based on the pure gospel as set forth on every page of the Bible. I used to agree with you on everything. I thought man was in control. Then I discovered what that means. One of the most free people on the earth was Stalin. No one told him what to do. He was FREE. He was the captain of his ship, he was expressing his free choice in everything he did -- and look what he did!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you and I thank God every single day -- not every other day -- every single day that my salvation depends not on me and my "free choice," but on the Sovereign God of the universe. When I read Eph. chapters 1 and 2 and John 10:1-33 and all the others that support my position, and the position of the Apostles, and the writers of the great, great, cogent creeds, like the 1689 Baptist Confessions and the Westminister Confessions, I KNOW that I am correct.

Please don't misunderstand me. I do not say that if you do not believe just like me, then you are not saved. It's just that my God is in control and my salvation does not depend ON ME. I thank God for that. God, you do it for me, I've tried, and tried, and no matter how hard I have tried, I was UNABLE to live a righteous life and save myself. Thank you God for DOING IT FOR ME.

Respectfully,
James2

[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I reject both Calvinism and Arminianism as damnable heresies. Both systems of thought extend their views of soteriology beyond what the scriptures teach. I wish to set the record straight about what I believe concerning salvation and election. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you reject Calvinism as a “damnable heresy”, then you are being dangerously foolish. The gospel is all about God exalting his own name, and not about man, other than for God glorifying his name through the salvation of undeserving filthy sinners. The rejection of grace is rooted in the rejection of the total depravity of man.

You may not believe it, but Calvinism predates Calvin, and is the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It is the doctrine of your Baptist forebears, the Reformers, Augustine, Paul, John, Christ, and the Father. Arminianism is a heresy – it attributes salvation to man. Only Reformed theology attributes salvation as wholly to God and God alone.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>#1 - Mankind has inherited the sinful nature from Adam and all men are born dead in trespasses and sins. This "deadness" means that man is unable to live a righteous life on his own no matter how hard he tries to do right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is your first error, and is a rejection of total deravity. Deadness does not mean “man is unable to live a righteous life on his own no matter how hard he tries to do right.” Rather deadness means that man is unable and unwilling to do right, does not seek to do right and hates to do right. Spiritually dead man hates God, and hates Christ. pray tell, how does a dead man decide to move toward God? He does not. God must regenerate him, and rebirth him from above.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

A person does not decide to be born; it is an act of the Father. The Spirit does what and when he pleases.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>#2 - Christ came to this world to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world and to provide salvation for all mankind. God did not choose to save a select few and then let the rest go to hell. He chose to save all those that would call on his name based upon their faith and trust in what Christ has done on the cross. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is in direct opposition to the Scriptures. Even if one holds to a general atonement the Scriptures are abundantly clear that Christ died especially for the church. As shown numerous times on this board, he died not to provide salvation, but to actually save the elect at Calvary. He atoned for the sins of the elect, else all people have their sins atoned for, and then God sends to hell those who have no condemnable sin.

John 10: 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 "I and My Father are one."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>#3 - When a man gets saved he then has the ability to do right because of the new nature that God has created in him. Saved people are not only declared righteous but have the imputed righteousness of Christ. That imputed righteousness gives the saved the ability to live a righteous life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man never has the ability to do right. A saved man is still a man of sin (Rom 7). However, his sins are not counted toward condemnation because Christ died for his sins past, present and future. The imputed righteousness of Christ does not give a sinner the ability to be or do good; that is Romanism. The imputed righteousness of Christ is given to the sinner on his account before God. Christ paid the penalty for the sins, never to be charged to the sinner again.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>#4 - The Biblical use of the words "foreknowledge", "election", "predestination", and "sanctification" are used in reference to those who will be saved in relation to their service to God not in relation to the means of obtaining salvation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is pure Arminianism and is a works based salvation. This is not the gospel of Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> #5 - God has provided the means of salvation through Christ's sacrifice on the cross but each one has the responsibilty to come to Christ personally repenting of their sins and trusting Christ as their Saviour. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Every creature has the responsibility to repent and turn to Christ, but only the regenerate elect will do so.

The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter X - Of Effectual Calling

I. Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;[2] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;[3] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh:[4] renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;[5] yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[6]

1. Rom. 8:30; 11:7; Eph. 1:10-11, II Thess. 2:13-14
2. Eph. 2:1-6
3. Acts 26:18; Eph. 1:17-18
4. Ezek.36:26
5. Deut. 30:6; Ezek.36:27; Eph. 1:19
6. Psa. 110:3; Song of Sol. 1:4

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all forseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature,[7] being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;[8] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.[9]

7. II Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8
8. I Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:5; John 5:25
9. Eph. 1:19-20

III. Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;[10] who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth;[11] so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

10. John 3:3, 5-6
11. John 3:8

IV. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[12] yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[13] much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.[14]

12. Matt. 22:14; 13:20-21; Heb. 6:4-5
13. John 6:44-45, 65; I John 2:24-25
14. Acts 4:12; John 4:22; 17:3

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>#6 - God uses the Holy Spirit to bring people to Christ by convicting men of sin, righteousness, and judgment. The work of the Holy Spirit is accomplished through the preaching of God's word. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That conviction also works for the condemnation and hardening of unrepentant sinners. The work of the Holy Spirit through preaching is certainly effective – for salvation and condemnation.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”
39Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>#7 - Salvation is once for all and a saved person can never lose his salvation but a saved person can backslide on God to the point of committing the sin unto death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can a man persevere if he must keep on believing to be saved? salvation is an act of God – and faith a gift of God given to the elect, so that God mat preserve the sinner, and not man persevere himself.

The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter XVII - Of the Perseverance of the Saints

I. Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence He still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;[1] and tough many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them,[2] yet He is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of His hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.[3]

1. John 10:28-29; Phil. 1:6; II Tim. 2:19; I John 2:19
2. Psa. 89:31-32; I Cor. 11:32
3. Mal. 3:6

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election,[4] flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with Him,[5] the oath of God,[6] the abiding of His Spirit, and the seed of God within them,[7] and the nature of the covenant of grace;[8]from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

4. Rom. 8:30; 9:11, 16
5. Rom. 5:9-10; John 14:19
6. Heb. 6:17-18
7. I John 3:9
8. Jer. 32:40

III. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein,[9]whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to have their graces and comforts impaired,[11] have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,[12] hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgements upon themselves,[13] yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.[14]

9. Matt. 26:70, 72, 74
10. Isa. 64:5, 9; Eph. 4:30
11. Psa. 51:10, 12
12. Psa. 32:3-4
13. II Sam. 12:14
14. Luke 22:32, 61-62

Like most who "reject both Calvinism and Arminianism", you have rather proven by your statements that you reject Calvinism and hold to classic Arminianism . Geisler did the same thing in Chosen but Free (which was nicely exposed and refuted in James White's The Potter's Freedom).

[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

As for me, I always laugh when people say "I reject both Calvinism and Arminianism." It just shows how much they misunderstand the issues. You cannot reject both. You either believe one or the other. There is no real middle ground.

The best is when people say, "I am not a Calvinist or an Arminian. I am a biblicist." Folks, a biblicist in soteriology is what has become known as a Calvinist.

As for Pioneer, Chris hit the nail on the head when he said that Pioneer has shown himself to be a Arminian.

 

I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, I am a Biblicist. I don't follow any man, nor do I attach my faith to the name of a man, nor do I refer to my salvation in the terms associated with any man. I accept, for the most part, the canons of the Synod of Dort, which reflect Biblical Soteriology. To say I must reject the bible (I.E., "biblicist") and accept the philosophy of man (I.E., "Calvinist" or "Arminian") is to deny the Bible, the Saviour of the Bible, and the God of the Bible.

I am not a "Calvinist" because Calvin was a baby sprinkling heretic who taught that the ordinances (he called them "sacraments") were a "means of grace." He may have come out of his apostate Roman Catholic Church but he brought too much of the furniture with him. It always amazes me when a Baptist calls himself a "Calvinist." Calvin wrote that "all Baptists should be put to death along with other evil doers." No thanks. I will not side with a man who believes the ordinances are a "means of grace," that Baptists are "evil doers" and worthy of death, that sprinkled babies, hated the biblical doctrine of separation of church and state, and had his so-called "church" rule over Geneva to the point that in comparison the Taliban looks moderate!

 

O..K...

I take it you reject the KJV for many of the same reasons?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You cannot reject both. You either believe one or the other. There is no real middle ground. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pastor Larry, to say there is no middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism is to reject the obvious. The majority of Baptists in America are in a middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism - they reject three of the 5 points and retain two of them. In actual practice many lean toward the Arminian side. You may not accept this middle ground. You may not think it is logical. But it does exist.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>#6 - God uses the Holy Spirit to bring people to Christ by convicting men of sin, righteousness, and judgment. The work of the Holy Spirit is accomplished through the preaching of God's word. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pioneer, I am curious; are you saying that the work of the Holy Spirit in convicting men is limited to the preaching of God's Word, or are you saying that preaching is one thing the Holy Spirit uses to convict??

 

Thomas makes a fundamental error by assering guilt by association. The word “calvinist” associates someone with a particular set of beliefs about soteriology. It has nothing to do with baby sprinkling or any other such thing. A biblicist is someone who believes in the sovereignty of God in salvation. The common name is “Calvinist.” When someone says, "I am a Calvinist" no one here is thinking of baby baptism. I believe it was Michael who tried to go down this path in another thread by making the discussion about the man. Calvinism by any other name would be just as sweet. I would be happy to call is Paulinism, or Jesusism, but unfortunately, Calvinism is the name everyone knows it by.

RLVaughn, When I say there is no middle ground I mean simply this: 1) Man is totally depraved and therefore salvation is all of God’s good pleasure, or 2) Man has the ability to choose salvation and therefore God responds to man. Show me the middle position.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
Calvin wrote that "all Baptists should be put to death along with other evil doers."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the complete works of Calvin. Would you please direct me to the location of that quote?

 

Pastor Larry, I have already shown what I was talking about as a middle position - 2 point Calvinism. You were originally talking about there being nowhere between Calvinism and Arminianism theologically, but there is in practice. As far as your numbers 1 & 2, I agree with number 1. But that doesn't mean people cannot try to believe sometime somewhere in between those two positions.

Pioneer, I wanted to be sure I understood you - "It is only through the preaching of the word of God that the Holy Spirit does his work." I disagree. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity - Almighty God. His work in conviction is not bound to our preaching, witnessing and singing. That is Campbellite doctrine.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pioneer:
I reject both Calvinism and Arminianism as damnable heresies. Both systems of thought extend their views of soteriology beyond what the scriptures teach. I wish to set the record straight about what I believe concerning salvation and election.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm 100% in agreement with you.

We evidently had the "same teacher". (1Jo 2:27)

If you'll notice, these "other doctrines" came from "other books" as the opinion of "other men", they're not from "God's word" as taught by the "Holy Ghost".

A little leaven, leaven the whole.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:


I'm 100% in agreement with you.

We evidently had the "same teacher". (1Jo 2:27)

If you'll notice, these "other doctrines" came from "other books" as the opinion of "other men", they're not from "God's word" as taught by the "Holy Ghost".

A little leaven, leaven the whole.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Useless ad hominem always used when someone cannot factually and biblically refute a position.

 

Thomas Cassidy said, "Calvin wrote that 'all Baptists should be put to death along with other evil doers.'"

Aaron said,"I have the complete works of Calvin. Would you please direct me to the location of that quote?"

I didn't think so.