Seventh-Day Adventism

[ReformedBaptist]

Dear Christians,

The subject of SDAism has come up on this board, and apparantly there may be some SDAs present. There exists a few well-researched interest sites for the SDA to examine their own beliefs in the light of Scripture. This thread is directed mainly to Christians.

I have till now been scarcely aware of the teaching of the SDAs or Ellen White. Honsestly, I had no bias at all against the group and only thought they were distingusihed from others by their view of the Sabbath. Sadly, I have been mistaken. Most grievous of their doctrines is the teaching on the atonement.

To the SDA the atonement is not complete. The following is a summary from www.exadventist.com which I have found to be honest and accurate (I looked up the quotes and read them in context).

"The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin....It will stand in the sanctuary until the final atonement" Patriarchs and Prophets, P. 357 (emphasis added).

One may inquire what they mean by "to cancel sin" but this is enough to cause great alarm to believers.

Also,

"Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw, that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, to perform the closing work of atonement, preparatory to his coming." The Great Controversy (1888), page 422, paragraph 1

Again, another statement to show the unfinished nature of the atonement of Christ. Brethren, this is heretical. The SDA church affirms that all teaching to should be judged of Scripture. The idea of an unfinished and yet to be accomplished (final work of atonement) should be so clear to bible-believers as false as to warrant little comment.

This statement the website highlight I found so utterly blasphmous that I am somewhat ashamed to even repeat it. But for the sake of the believer it should be exposed and condemned:

"It was seen, also, that while the sin-offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scape-goat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scape-goat. When Christ, by virtue of his own blood, removes the sins of his people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and his people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners. " The Great Controversy (1888), page 422, paragraph 2

Precious Christian, flee from this utter blasphemy. I cannot in my mind fathom words strong enough to condemn this evil doctrine of demons. Only a devil could utter such a horrendous attack upon the substitionary atonement of Christ and make satan the one to bear the sins of God's people.

To the SDA I say with grief and anger in my heart: Flee this teaching. Get out of the SDA cult. This teaching is utterly reprehensible and flee to Christ who alone bore the sins of His people. He Himself is the scapegoat for His people who once and for all accomplished eternal redemption for those who believe in Him.

May the Lord be praised.

RB

Edit to add sources:
http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Intro/tabid/64/Default.aspx
This is the good website exposing the error of the SDA cult.

http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/
This is for verfiction of the quotes above.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Precious Christian, flee from this utter blasphemy. I cannot in my mind fathom words strong enough to condemn this evil doctrine of demons. Only a devil could utter such a horrendous attack upon the substitionary atonement of Christ and make satan the one to bear the sins of God's people.

To the SDA I say with grief and anger in my heart: Flee this teaching. Get out of the SDA cult. This teaching is utterly reprehensible and flee to Christ who alone bore the sins of His people. He Himself is the scapegoat for His people who once and for all accomplished eternal redemption for those who believe in Him.

May the Lord be praised.

RB

Amen.

BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear Christians,

Most grievous of their doctrines is the teaching on the atonement.
To the SDA the atonement is not complete. The following is a summary from www.exadventist.com which I have found to be honest and accurate (I looked up the quotes and read them in context).

One may inquire what they mean by "to cancel sin" but this is enough to cause great alarm to believers.

It was seen, also, that while the sin-offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scape-goat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scape-goat. When Christ, by virtue of his own blood, removes the sins of his people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and his people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners. " The Great Controversy (1888), page 422, paragraph 2

1. They say that they believe in the Redemption Once For All, but actually deny it. In that aspect, they are similar to Roman Catholic in terms of Incomplete Sacrifice at the Cross. RCC supplement it by weekly Sacrifice - Mass where priests repeatedly ask for the forgiveness without bringing the Gospel that even the daily sins were already forgiven at the Cross. SDA claims that they should continue to keep the Law and commandments, otherwise they lose the Salvation. They are similar each other in essence.
Throughout the world, only the True Christianity teaches the Salvation by Grace through the Sacrifice at the Cross Once for All. This is so much important. But SDA missed this and therefore can never believe in OSAS.

2. They misunderstand about Scape Goat. In their belief, God needs a Satan and Satan contributed for the Redemption. Without Satan, no salvation was possible. This is what I and BobRyan argued about so much in the past. Scape Goat and Jehovah's Goat were 2 sides of one sheet, Jesus Christ. But Bob never accepted this truth, sadly.

All the other religion than True Christianity teaches either Human Works or Grace + HUman Works. They say " the Huge Work was done by God, by grace, but need a little bit of human touch"
Any religion bringing the human works is a pagan.

 

[steaver]

BobRyan, you always emphatically assert that the "Prophet's" writings MUST harmonize with scripture. How can you possibly defend these writings with the Word of God?

Where does God's word state that our sins will be placed upon satan? Have they not been placed upon our Savior Jesus Christ? It seems as though these writings are saying that Jesus now needs a Savior to get the sins off of His back.

This is craziness. Jesus bore the sin punishment for the world and that is why He is worthy of all praise and worship. Now if satan also must bear these same sins should we praise satan as well?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan, you always emphatically assert that the "Prophet's" writings MUST harmonize with scripture. How can you possibly defend these writings with the Word of God?

Where does God's word state that our sins will be placed upon satan?

This is you quoting "who" -- you??

As for this question - I have pointed out a zillion times that The Atoning sacrifice was complete at the cross and that Christ died "for OUR sins and not for OUR SINS only but for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD".

I have also pointed out that Satan does not pay for anyone's sins - but his own in the lake of fire.

This is the doctrine of SDAs - it also happens to be the doctrine that Ellen White taught -- but that is beside the point.

Having said it a zillion times - it is getting to be pretty funny the way you "want" to spin it backwards again -- this can't possibly be convincing for someone that already KNOWS the details like me - so I can only conclude that you are spinning this for the unsuspecting reader.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But SDA missed this and therefore can never believe in OSAS.

Check out the OSAS threads - much more than SDAS on that thread accepting the Bible truth that Matt 18, John 15, Rom 11 etc all debunk OSAS. (But of course that is "another thread")

2. They misunderstand about Scape Goat. In their belief, God needs a Satan and Satan contributed for the Redemption.

Works better if you quote something rather than simply making things up on that point.

Without Satan, no salvation was possible.

Another quote of you quoting you??

This is what I and BobRyan argued about so much in the past.

Then you should easily be able to provide a quote of ME actually saying some of the wild things you are accusing me of --

Still waiting...:applause:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

"It was seen, also, that while the sin-offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scape-goat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scape-goat. When Christ, by virtue of his own blood, removes the sins of his people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and his people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners. " The Great Controversy (1888), page 422, paragraph 2

Is this quote in the book "The Great Controversy" or not?

 

[Joe]

From my experience in an SDA church, many SDA's don't believe in Ellen White as anything more than a common woman. Imho, it's the older SDA's who are really into her writings. So I'll ask...

Bob, do you believe Ellen was a Messenger from God? Just a yes or no will do. Thanks

(Note: I am not familiar with her being a prophet)


Blessings,


Joe

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

A note from BDM on SDA

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/sda/adventi.htm


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

Check out the OSAS threads - much more than SDAS on that thread accepting the Bible truth that Matt 18, John 15, Rom 11 etc all debunk OSAS. (But of course that is "another thread")



Works better if you quote something rather than simply making things up on that point.



Another quote of you quoting you??



Then you should easily be able to provide a quote of ME actually saying some of the wild things you are accusing me of --

Still waiting...:applause:

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

1. YOu still believe that the Galatians who were fallen from the Grace of Jesus Christ lost the Salvation, don't you?

2. YOu still believe that the Scape Goat is the symbol for Jesus Christ.

Do you think Aaron confessed all the sins and inequities of Israel unto Satan and Satan carried all the sins of Israel into the wilderness? Read Lev 16:21.

Remember this. God would not accept it ! any good job by Satan !

It is not the false accusation, because even now we can confirm such difference, right?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Is this quote in the book "The Great Controversy" or not?

Yes it is.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

This is you quoting "who" -- you??

As for this question - I have pointed out a zillion times that The Atoning sacrifice was complete at the cross and that Christ died "for OUR sins and not for OUR SINS only but for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD".

I have also pointed out that Satan does not pay for anyone's sins - but his own in the lake of fire.

This is the doctrine of SDAs - it also happens to be the doctrine that Ellen White taught -- but that is beside the point.

Having said it a zillion times - it is getting to be pretty funny the way you "want" to spin it backwards again -- this can't possibly be convincing for someone that already KNOWS the details like me - so I can only conclude that you are spinning this for the unsuspecting reader.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

It is good news to me that you reject these most grievous and blasphmous teachings. Has the SDA movement officially rejected them? Are they still taught in the SDA churches?

RB

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: so I can only conclude that you are spinning this for the unsuspecting reader.

HP: What is amazing to me is that those that necessitate God as the author of all evil via their own doctrines have the audacity to try to straighten the SDA’s out on their doctrine on the atonement. They are exhibiting the insight of a pot calling a kettle black in calling them a cult.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes it is.

i was just wanting Bob to say it.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

It is good news to me that you reject these most grievous and blasphmous teachings. Has the SDA movement officially rejected them? Are they still taught in the SDA churches?

RB

Perhaps a bit more attention "to detail" will help clarify this.

1. I never claimed to Believe that Satan provide ANY KIND of substitutionary atonement for the sins of mankind - either of the saints or of the wicked that go to hell. I have always said that Satan only pays the debt owed by HIS OWN guilt in tempting others.

2. THERE IS NO SDA doctrine that has EVER said that Satan provides substiutionary atonement for the sins of ANYONE - not the wicked and not the saints. The SDA doctrinal statements are available ONLINE for ALL to read. To pretend that one is citing them -- when one is NOT is to mislead the readers.

3. Ellen White NEVER said that Satan provides substitutionary atonement for ANYONE not the wicked and not the saints.

I will now depart from my practice of NOT using Ellen White as a source on this board - since you have started a thread that DOES that very thing --

Story of Redemption P 403

[NOTE.--THIS SUFFERING OF SATAN IS IN NO SENSE A VICARIOUS ATONEMENT. AS INDICATED IN A PREVIOUS CHAPTER: "AS MAN'S SUBSTITUTE AND SURETY, THE INIQUITY OF MEN WAS LAID UPON CHRIST." (SEE P. 225.) BUT AFTER THOSE WHO ACCEPT CHRIST'S SACRIFICE HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, IT IS CERTAINLY JUST THAT SATAN, THE ORIGINATOR OF SIN, SHOULD SUFFER THE FINAL PUNISHMENT.
AS MRS. WHITE HAS SAID ELSEWHERE, "WHEN THE WORK OF ATONEMENT IN THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY HAS BEEN COMPLETED, THEN IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD AND HEAVENLY ANGELS, AND THE HOST OF THE REDEEMED, THE SINS OF GOD'S PEOPLE WILL BE PLACED UPON SATAN; HE WILL BE DECLARED GUILTY OF ALL THE EVIL WHICH HE HAS CAUSED THEM TO COMMIT."--THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, P. 658.--COMPILERS.] {SR 403.2}

4. It is not correct to assume that any statement you snip out of context from Ellen White constitutes a kind of "defacto doctrinal statement for Adventists".

As it turns out SDAs read FAR MORE of Ellen White (usually) than those that snippet-and-paste her writings in places like this - so playing that kind of game is not going be a strong suite for non-SDAs.

5. Since I (and the SDA denomination) already freely hold my church bound by the rules of "Sola scriptura" and since those non-SDAs on this board must SURELY view any error in the SDA church as being in some kind of violation of scripture - WHY not let the debate center on scripture to post objectiions??

I realize I am just stating the obvious here - but that seems to be my role.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

1. YOu still believe that the Galatians who were fallen from the Grace of Jesus Christ lost the Salvation, don't you?

Galatians 5 "you have BEEN SEVERED FROM Christ, fallen FROM Grace".

And that means no salvation.

But it also means formerly JOINED TO Christ then SEVERED FROM Christ.

As the OSAS thread points out - a lot of non-SDAS see that truth clearly. No surprise there.

2. YOu still believe that the Scape Goat is the symbol for Jesus Christ.

Nope. The Scape Goat is NOT a sin offering NOT a symbol for Christ and is NOT sacrificed in Lev 16.

"THE SIN offering" is uniquely the identifier for "The Lord's Goat" in Lev 16.

I am going to have to go with that definition as scripture gives it..


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

"It was seen, also, that while the sin-offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scape-goat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scape-goat. When Christ, by virtue of his own blood, removes the sins of his people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and his people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners. " The Great Controversy (1888), page 422, paragraph 2

Is this quote in the book "The Great Controversy" or not?

What I still would like to know is this.

Is this quote found in "The Great Controversy"?

 

[BobRyan]

Is this quote in the book "The Great Controversy" or not?

It is. So also the quote given here from Story of Redemption and Great Controversy showing that the meaning some have attempted to construe does not stand up to the reading of the full context in that same book nor any other book she wrote.

A much more DIRECT approach for SDA bashing would be to simply read the SDA doctrinal statements published for all to read and oppose them from scripture instead of trying to dream up snippet-broken-context statements from Ellen White -- since I will also be able to access about a zillion more showing the actual facts in the matter. Why base the discussion on the poor understanding of non-SDAs regarding the full context of what Ellen White wrote?

If non-SDAs are looking for a basis to declare no faith in Ellen White as a prophet I have already provided a rock solid argument for why non-SDA can easily make that statement and EVEN SDAs would support them using the model I suggested. You guys are going the long way around on this one.

How does that help you when I have already shown that the REAL issue has to be won "sola scriptura" when it comes to SDA doctrine. I NEVER appeal to an "Ellen White says" proof for ANYTHING nor does the SDA church!

What does it gain those who bash SDAs to use that kind of straw man?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

It is. So also the quote given here from Story of Redemption and Great Controversy showing that the meaning some have attempted to construe does not stand up to the reading of the full context in that same book nor any other book she wrote.

A much more DIRECT approach for SDA bashing would be to simply read the SDA doctrinal statements published for all to read and oppose them from scripture instead of trying to dream up snippet-broken-context statements from Ellen White -- since I will also be able to access about a zillion more showing the actual facts in the matter. Why base the discussion on the poor understanding of non-SDAs regarding the full context of what Ellen White wrote?

How does that help you when I have already shown that the REAL issue has to be won "sola scriptura" when it comes to SDA doctrine. I NEVER appeal to an "Ellen White says" proof for ANYTHING nor does the SDA church!

What does it gain those who bash SDAs to use that kind of straw man?

in Christ,

Bob

Then the "beef" so to speak is not with YOU, but with the BOOK. Would you say this was a bad statement by the writer?

 

[BobRyan]

I would agree that this statement is much more clear in that regard

Story of Redemption P 403

[NOTE.--THIS SUFFERING OF SATAN IS IN NO SENSE A VICARIOUS ATONEMENT. AS INDICATED IN A PREVIOUS CHAPTER: "AS MAN'S SUBSTITUTE AND SURETY, THE INIQUITY OF MEN WAS LAID UPON CHRIST." (SEE P. 225.) BUT AFTER THOSE WHO ACCEPT CHRIST'S SACRIFICE HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, IT IS CERTAINLY JUST THAT SATAN, THE ORIGINATOR OF SIN, SHOULD SUFFER THE FINAL PUNISHMENT.
AS MRS. WHITE HAS SAID ELSEWHERE, "WHEN THE WORK OF ATONEMENT IN THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY HAS BEEN COMPLETED, THEN IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD AND HEAVENLY ANGELS, AND THE HOST OF THE REDEEMED, THE SINS OF GOD'S PEOPLE WILL BE PLACED UPON SATAN; HE WILL BE DECLARED GUILTY OF ALL THE EVIL WHICH HE HAS CAUSED THEM TO COMMIT."--THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, P. 658.--COMPILERS.] {SR 403.2}

I would also argue that given the current inclination to take the former statement out of context - I would not have written it that way.

in Christ,

Bob