Seventh-Day Adventism

[TCGreek]

HP: Try reading the book. It is an interesting read.

People become disillusioned for right as well as wrong reasons. God gave us all an intellect and a free will to utilize in the best way we can with the light we have been granted. God can lead us in and out of groups for many various reasons.

As for EGW, you tell me. Was she guilty of plagiarism? Let me ask you a few questions with some of the line of questioning some on this board utilize.

Are you perfect? Let him that is without sin cast the first stone. What does that have to do with ones standing before God? Our works have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation, and have nothing to do with keeping it. Regardless what one does if their elect all their past present and future sins are paid for two thousand years ago. Why would you drag up something that God has already forgotten before it ever happen? If one leaves the Church and goes to another because it is believed one in charge has sinned, do you think the next church or leader will be without sin? If any claim such they are simply liars.

How am I doing?:smilewinkgrin:

1. Was EGW a true prophetess, sent by God, as in the case of Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah and so on?

2. I believe those were the questions asked by RB and are the relevant questions before us.

3. When I brought up EGW in connection with plagiarism, I was only trying to disprove her claims and those of the SDA groups who considered her writing as inspired and on the same level of what we read in Scripture. That is all!

 

[Joe]

HP: Thanks Joe. All I am doing is chiming in. :laugh:

I would like to ask you a couple of yes or no questions. Are you born again? If so, when did you give your heart and life to the Lord? If it was while you were within the SDA’s just say yes. If it was after you left them just say no.

Actually, you are not chiming in you are repeatidly disapproving of the questions posters are asking of Bob, and I wonder why. Now you are rude to me.
So....
I am unsure if you really want an answer to your question or if your just being sarcastic. Maybe you can think on it.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Was EGW a true prophetess, sent by God, as in the case of Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah and so on?

More like Agabus, Anna, Philip's 4 daughters, all those at Corinth. Non-canonical prophets.

Etc.

Etc

(And already answered by me)

RB
2. I believe those were the questions asked by RB and are the relevant questions before us.

As already stated in the "catholics would not approve of a protestant prophet" post -- when you take a view of the Bible that is doctrinally opposed to the SDA doctrinal view you have already answered the question of whether you should be considering an SDA with the gift of prophecy as having the true gift.

How can that be any simpler?

TCG
3. When I brought up EGW in connection with plagiarism, I was only trying to disprove her claims and those of the SDA groups who considered her writing as inspired and on the same level of what we read in Scripture. That is all!

Those discussions do occur inside the SDA church - lots of data to review "so many details to ignore for some".

But outside the SDA church it makes no sense at all since the end point is the same for a non-SDA as in condition two above.

Seems easy enough to follow to me and I am sure for you -- but for some this will be verrrry confusing.:thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: Actually, you are not chiming in you are repeatidly disapproving of the questions posters are asking of Bob, and I wonder why. So....I am unsure if you really want an answer to your question or if your just being sarcastic. Maybe you can think on it.

HP: I cannot believe my eyes. All you have said about simple yes or no questions and you refuse to do the same when asked??? Why the hypocrisy Joe? What right do you have to impinge my motives when a simple yes or no is all I asked of you?

 

[BobRyan]

What I was responding, and awaiting an answer for, is that the SDA has taught, and is still teaching?, that her prophesies are of the same quality, inspired.

"Quality"???

God is the source of the true gift of prophecy... is it your claim that "the quality" changes because "GOD" does not have as much quality sometimes as others??

How in the world can you make such statements?

OR are you comparing the "quality" of a scenario where God HAS said something and HAS given a certain message to the "quality" of when a false prophet is claiming something that is not true?

Just which "quality" scenario do you object to SDAs addressing?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

, the word is theopneustos: God-breathed, or breathed out by God such that there is no mixture thought originating from the human mind.

A squares are rectangles - but not all rectangles are squares.

You seem to be struggling with this concept.

All prophets are inspired by God - but as we see with Anna, Mary, Agabus, Philip's daughters, ALL those at Corinth -- NOT all those who prophesy were writing scriptures.

This could not be any simpler.

Surely you also can see it clearly.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

HP: I cannot believe my eyes. All you have said about simple yes or no questions and you refuse to do the same when asked???

Please, drop the drama. I never stated that, refrain from accusations. Go back and read my post.

Why the hypocrisy Joe? What right do you have to impinge my motives when a simple yes or no is all I asked of you?

I know of no hypocrisy or impinging of motives and don't appreciate being linked to either. Calm down. You are welcome to PM me

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA seems to be teaching us that White's prophesies and doctrines are if this quality, but not given for Scripture.

Indeed any thing God says "has the same QUALITY" (not sure why you get confused on that point)

But not ALL who had the gift of prophecy in either OT or NT were ALSO writing scripture.

If the words of White, or the prophets of the NT which you equate White,

"Prophets of the NT" like Anna, Mary, Agabus, Philip's daughters, all those in Corinth???

do not prophesy infallibly, then what is it?

in Gal 1 Paul says "though we or an angel from heaven should give you a gospel OTHER than what has been given let them be accursed".

YOUR "infallible source" argument seems to argue that Paul SHOULD have said "WHEN we apostles OR an Angel from heaven say something we are always infallible - so believe us no matter if you think we are contradicting scripture since we are after all infallible".

That is good RC doctrine in the dark ages - but I am surprised to see someone using it today.

How do we know Agubus was a true prophet or had the gift of prophesy from God?

Scripture tells us this was so.

If White prophesied events saying, The Lord told me, and it does not come to pass, doesn't that make her out to be false?

here you are applying one of the many Biblical tests of a prophet. As already pointed out Isiah 8 tells us "To the LAW and to the prophets if they speak not according to this word they have no light" -- this makes the case clearly for those with a non-SDA doctrinal view of scripture to reject Ellen White.

This is the starting point.

Why in the world would I go past that point??

You seem confused here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

More like Agabus, Anna, Philip's 4 daughters, all those at Corinth. Non-canonical prophets.

What do you mean by Non-canonical prophets? And how does EGW fit into that category?

 

[BobRyan]

It is in my 1907 Version.
It is in my 1990 Version.

IMHO the SDA doctrines are valid: I.E. logical extrapolations
of Scripture. I'm going to check with Mr. E.G.White when I
get to heaven.

We need to be kind to our fellow Christians, even if they
aren't Baptists.

Well said Ed! :applause:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
More like Agabus, Anna, Philip's 4 daughters, all those at Corinth. Non-canonical prophets.

What do you mean by Non-canonical prophets? And how does EGW fit into that category?

It is my contention that all on this board can look at the list I gave above and "observe" that they wrote no scripture -- I believe you see that as well.

It is my contention that Miriam and Aaron also fit that discription as we see in Numbers 12.

The wild assumption that everything every written by an inspired souce turned into scripture - is mythology not historic fact.

In any case - I have already given the easiest possible rule to follow for Biblical test of prophets - and you seem to be going around it AS IF you would accept Ellen White as a prophet no matter what the Bible says to the contrary when it comes to doctrinal accuracy in the message "but you just want to look at some other aspect".

I going down that road -- you leave me with no choice but to point out the obvious -- no skipping step one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I

Bob already answered the first question on the other thread, that is that the SDA church does believe that EGW's writings on Christian doctrines can be fallible (in error doctrinally).

Now I want to know which writings of EGW's on Christian doctrine does the SDA church reject as error.

As I already said - you are using an RC concept of fallible/infallible person.

As Already stated - God ALONE is infallible.

As Already stated - Ellen White's writings are ALL fallible.

On this board -

Your posts are ALL fallible.

My posts are all fallible - but the difference is that mine are all correct.:applause:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: Wow! I asked yes or no specifically, and politely many times. I did not see the words yes or no anywhere.

I have a focus problem with my eyes. I edit my posts later after the blue background because it is less strain. Please be courteous of that, and answer simple yes or no questions when I request it. Or at least add the details after. You are being unfair.

• Answer the SPECIFIC question asked with a yes or no. Use these exact words of yes or no. Stick to the topic at first, then if you wish to add details, do it after you have answered. It's common courtesy.
  
  2. If you wish not to answer, just say so

HP: I am calm Joe. Do you see this thumb shaking? :thumbs:

Are these not your own words? Apply them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The whole problem with this thread is that it basis its whole attack on the beliefs of a leader in a Church in the past that cannot come on the board to defend herself. It tries to hold the feet of those still worshiping under the name SDA to every jot and title she may have felt, spoken or written.

Several of you seem to find it your duty to tear apart deceased individuals and their beliefs. Let me ask you all something. How many of those that opposed the writing of EGW did she have burnt at the stake? How many that opposed her writings did she banish upon fear of death and how many fires did she build for the writings of her opposition? How many courts and hearings did she stack in order to get her way in disposing of her critics?

I AM NOT justifying her beliefs in any manner. I do not agree with much of SDA’s doctrines as I understand them, but this line of questioning when there is a whole spectrum of SDA members with many varied beliefs, as if to be an SDA means you are lock step with EGW, is simply preposterous. We could do the same with any group and the results would be the same. There are skeletons and false ideas in every denomination I can think of. Would it not be a more resourceful and kinder approach to address a specific issue held by BR or others on this list and then debate the merits of it not according to another long deceased, but by the Word of God, reason and experience?

 

[TCGreek]

It is my contention that all on this board can look at the list I gave above and "observe" that they wrote no scripture -- I believe you see that as well.

It is my contention that Miriam and Aaron also fit that discription as we see in Numbers 12.

1. I cannot take that belief away for you.

The wild assumption that everything every written by an inspired souce turned into scripture - is mythology not historic fact.

2. Among evangelicals, only those who have not really studied the matter would be guilty of your wild assumption charged. For example, it is well established that Paul wrote four letters to the Corinthians, for that is quite obvious from the reading of both 1&2 Corinthians.

3. Whatever you believe about the Scriptures in light of EGW's writing, you would have to square with, and it seems like you have done that and are comfortable with the results.

 

[Joe]

HP: I am calm Joe. Do you see this thumb shaking? :thumbs:

Are these not your own words? Apply them.

You are deliberately attempting to mislead everyone by your selective cut and pasting.

Here it is-

Can I ask you all if we can stick to some ground rules so we can continue this conversation in an adult manner?

1. Answer the SPECIFIC question asked with a yes or no. Use these exact words of yes or no. Stick to the topic at first, then if you wish to add details, do it after you have answered. It's common courtesy.

2. If you wish not to answer, just say so

3. No name calling or sarcasm to folks who decline answering questions. It's their perrogative.

4. Do not put down anyone's reading comprehension or abilities. People are at different levels.

5. Do not derail a question directed to a specific poster. Allow the poster to answer for themselves. It makes no difference whether you approve of the question, since it wasn't directed at you anyway. This doesn't mean others can't chime in.

Ok, to everyone here, Can we agree and stick to these?

Still misunderstanding????? It's ok to decline answering questions, so please don't get so uptight

 

[Joe]

The whole problem with this thread is that it basis its whole attack on the beliefs of a leader in a Church in the past that cannot come on the board to defend herself. It tries to hold the feet of those still worshiping under the name SDA to every jot and title she may have felt, spoken or written.

Several of you seem to find it your duty to tear apart deceased individuals and their beliefs. Let me ask you all something. How many of those that opposed the writing of EGW did she have burnt at the stake? How many that opposed her writings did she banish upon fear of death and how many fires did she build for the writings of her opposition? How many courts and hearings did she stack in order to get her way in disposing of her critics?

I AM NOT justifying her beliefs in any manner. I do not agree with much of SDA’s doctrines as I understand them, but this line of questioning when there is a whole spectrum of SDA members with many varied beliefs, as if to be an SDA means you are lock step with EGW, is simply preposterous. We could do the same with any group and the results would be the same. There are skeletons and false ideas in every denomination I can think of. Would it not be a more resourceful and kinder approach to address a specific issue held by BR or others on this list and then debate the merits of it not according to another long deceased, but by the Word of God, reason and experience?

Surprisingly nicer toned post, and one I agree with

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: so please don't get so uptight

HP: :smilewinkgrin:

PS: You forgot to highlight #1. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Wrong. As Agabus, Anna, Philips 4 daughters and ALL the NT saints in Corinth (1Cor 14) prove - simply having the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy does NOT make everything you receive through that gift "scripture".

RB
You know Bob, the more I learn about this movement the more I realize there must be some real turmoil within it. I have taken from you that the above statement is accurate SDA beliefs. I think I may have been led to a mistake by you. Consider:

"Seventh-day Adventists hold that Ellen G. White performed the work of a true prophet during the seventy years of her public ministry. As Samuel was a prophet, as Jeremiah was a prophet, as John the Baptist, so we believe that Mrs. White was a prophet to the church of Christ today. October 4, 1928."

So where is the "error" from me?

What part of my statement above says "Agabus is not a true prophet no matter what the Bible says"???

What part of my statement above says "Ellen white is a prophet like those in 1Cor 12 BUT NOT a true prophet"???

Where do you get that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I have in my library a book by a former Adventist minister, who ministered in the Adventist faith for 28 years and was a prominent writer as well; the name of the book is Seven-Day Adventism Renounced by D.M. Canright.

Canright became a baptist minister.

I am not here to argue the case for or against disgruntled x-SDAs from decades past or even current.

They can speak for themselves.

But if you have a question for me on doctrine -- be it about 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts or Lev 16 and Atonement - I am happy to help!

in Christ,

Bob