Seventh-Day Adventism

[BobRyan]

The Romanists say the same thing about the pope now. He is capable of error unless he is speaking officially for the church, in which case he suddenly becomes infallible. Ellen White is merely the pope of the SDA.

And then God said...

1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach...


BGTF

The argument of the RCC is and has ALWAYS been that when the Pope speaks "ExCathedra" he is "infallible".

SDAs do not use the term infallible for anyone but God - because it is error. As Lucifer proves - even the Angels are fallible.

SDAs ALSO do not say that ANY statement from Ellen White is "infallible" but that ALL must be tested against scripture as even PAUL insists in Gal 1.

There has never been a change to that policy in the SDA church.

Beyond that - The fact that SDAs admit that what God says is true -- is actually something we hold in common with all churches.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

SDAs ALSO do not say that ANY statement from Ellen White is "infallible" but that ALL must be tested against scripture as even PAUL insists in Gal 1.

Then it should be relatively easy for you to pick three statements with regards to church doctrine where you understand Ellen White to be wrong. I would like to know which ones they are?


BGTF

 

[Joe]

Hi All

Like I said, I am a former SDA, and want to chime in here. Sorry this is so long, I added the baptisimal vows. This info can be verified at the Official SDA website, as I cut and pasted some info off of it such as the fundamental beliefs below, and only offered info that was verifiable

Below are my actual baptismal vows, but I found an exact copy (except with one belief additon) on wikipedia.

In order to be baptized SDA, you must agree to certain fundamental beliefs, sign your john hancock to them, and fill out a questionaire which you must pass, Then you are automatically a member upon baptism. Since my baptism, again, there one has been ONE belief added but that's all. Getting back to EW...As RB already quoted....

Spirit of Prophecy (fundamental belief 18) - The ministry of Ellen G. White is commonly referred to as the "Spirit of Prophecy" and her writings are considered "a continuing and authoritative source of truth",[5] though ultimately subject to the Bible. (See: Inspiration of Ellen White)

Imho, either we believe her writings as truth which coincides with the bible or we don't. To add "though ultimately subjected to the bible" is not necessary. It's a given.

She is infallible as a human while in the fleshly body, we know this so why debate it. Yet her writings cannot be with error if she is being held to the standard of a prophet or messenger of God. Or called an authoritative truth. Her official label with the church is Messenger from God.

With regards to plagarism, EW spent time in jail for this. From my limited research years ago, I wasn't convinced she committed this crime. In that day, imho, she may have contacted the authors for their permission to use their works. Ellen died very poor, continuing to write books so she wasn't greedy.

EW, her beliefs, are woven into their school system, how they teach the kids (My son attended Adventist Private School) , their hospitals, mission work, their health message and almost every aspect of their lifestyle though her name is not officially linked to it. She was often quoted in our church as "EW says this, or she says that" depending upon the topic. But often, there would be no reply from church members. It was a sore subject

Only read what I highlighted below-

The 13 baptismal vows are:

"1. Do you believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit?
2. Do you accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of men, and believe that through faith in His shed blood men are saved from sin and its penalty?
3. Renouncing the world and its sinful ways, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, and do you believe that God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven your sins and given you a new heart?
4: Do you accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, recognizing Him as your Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, and do you claim His promise to strengthen you by His indwelling Spirit, so that you may receive power to do His will?
5. Do you believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, and that it constitutes the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian?
6. Do you accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians;and is it your purpose, by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord?
7. Is the soon coming of Jesus the blessed hope in your heart, and are you determined to be personally ready to meet the Lord, and to do all in your power to witness to His loving salvation, and by life and word to help others to be ready for His glorious appearing?
8. Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?
9. Do you believe in church organization, and is it your purpose to support the church by your tithes and offerings, your personal effort, and influence?
10. Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are to honor God by caring for your body, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of, or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs?
11. Knowing and understanding the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, is it your purpose, by the grace of God, to order your life in harmony with these principles?
12. Do you accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion, and do you desire to be so baptized as a public expression of your faith in Christ and in the forgiveness of your sins?
13. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire membership in this local congregation of the world church?"[1]

As seen above, Official SDA's state the Bible is the ONLY authoritative truth to follow yet condradict themselves requiring this belief in Ellen White. What I don't understand is it's a no win situation to believe in EW, so no reason to. If you choose to, you may be breaking the 1st commandment, and we are told to stay away from false prophets. Knowing the Bible is the only source of truth, there is no logical reason to believe in any Prophet, messenger etc.. unless YOU experience them with YOUR own eyes. Not read about them later knowing the Bible told us it's the only source of truth.

Imho, most SDA's don't believe in EW but are pressured to lie and pretend they do. Or just avoid the subject, but everyone who Tithes, supports EW cause including $$ to the EW Estate. I have met many from various SDA churches through Camp Meetings and such.

My two cents worth...

 

[DHK]

Bob,
If this is an accurate statement that Joe posted:

13. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire membership in this local congregation of the world church?"[1]

Does it not make the SDA's entirely exclusive of all others, demanding that no one else can be saved outside of the SDA's (for they alone are the chosen remnant), and therefore it fits the label of a cult very well.

 

[TCGreek]

1. In Mrs. EG White own words, "In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his spirit."

2. Now, you have to keep in mind that EGW believed that the visions she received were revelations from God and became known as "Testimonies."

3. Keeping in mind that EGW and her followers believe that mrs. White is the "spirit of prophecy" of Rev. 19:10.

 

[Joe]

Here are some excepts from my Desire of Ages book by EH. This book chronicles Jesus life (Beg. with Chapter 7) from childhood-on


Pg 87 third paragraph- Jesus loved His brothers, and treated them with unfailing kindness; but they were jealous of him, and manifested the most decided unbelief and contempt.

Pg 89, last sentence to next pg-
But to every temptation he had one answer, "It is written" He rarely rebuked any wrongdoing of his brothers, but he had a word from God to speak to them. He was often accused of cowardice for refusing to unite with them in some forbidden act; but His answer was, "It is written" The fear of the Lord, that is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding Job 28:28

Pg 90-When the Priests and Teachers required Mary's aid in controlling Jesus, she was greatly troubled.

Second paragraph pg 90-
At times she (speaking of Mary) wavered between Jesus and his brothers who did not believe that he was The sent of God.

Pg 203-last paragraph
With lowering brows they interrupted him, asking why he was carrying his bed on the Sabbath Day. Thy sternly reminded him that it was not lawful to bear burdens on the Lord's day. in his joy, the man had forgotten it was the Sabbath; yet he felt no condemnation for obeying the command of One who had such power of God.

This last one on pg 203 is referring to Jesus forgetting it was the Sabbath

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,
If this is an accurate statement that Joe posted:

Does it not make the SDA's entirely exclusive of all others, demanding that no one else can be saved outside of the SDA's .

It is a fun story to make up - but not believed by SDAs.

As Ellen White stated "where are the vast majority of God's saints to be found? Without question it is outside the Adventist church".

There has never been any doubt in the SDA church that non-SDAs are Christians AND are saved -- though I see you trying to make a good case for switching that view - I don't see any SDAs going for it.

In Rev 12 the RCC and Pagan Rome are both pictured as attacking the church - the saints. However the fact is that there were Christians in both the RCC and the Protestant churches. The "remnant" in Rev 12 is what "was left after the persecution" - and that included a lot of Christians in different denominations. In the last days it gets down to the extent to which the doctrinal reforms begun in the RCC by those "protesting catholics" finds it's ultimate form.

In the case above the term "Remnant" has to do with doctrinal statements. The idea is that of all Christian groups the SDA doctrinal statements are the most correct.

But if you think about it - that is what everyone says about their own doctrinal statements. After who in their right mind would go around saying "My church is in fact in a lot more doctrinal error than most but I stay cause I like it"???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

All my posts are fallible -- and as it turns out - all my posts are also correct.

So consequently - there will be no "Bob pointing to errors in his posts" --



Originally Posted by BobRyan
SDAs ALSO do not say that ANY statement from Ellen White is "infallible" but that ALL must be tested against scripture as even PAUL insists in Gal 1.

Then it should be relatively easy for you to pick three statements with regards to church doctrine where you understand Ellen White to be wrong. I would like to know which ones they are?
BGTF

Is that because you would like to spin the meaning of "infallible" to be the same as "correct" no matter what it really means??

I will stick with the actual definition.

Infallible: INCAPABLE of error.

God ALONE is "infallible".

Hence - all my posts are FALLIBLE but as it turns out all my posts are ALSO correct.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. In Mrs. EG White own words, "In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his spirit."

2. Now, you have to keep in mind that EGW believed that the visions she received were revelations from God and became known as "Testimonies."

3. Keeping in mind that EGW and her followers believe that mrs. White is the "spirit of prophecy" of Rev. 19:10.

She compiled her letters to individuals and called them "the Testimonies" claiming that they were messages from God to individuals and were also of use to the SDA denomination.

She wrote commentary on the Life of Christ and called it "The DESIRE of Ages" a name she also applied to Christ.

She never claimed to "write Christ" or "be Christ" just to write a book about Him.

So not sure where that one is going on your part.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Pg 203-last paragraph
With lowering brows they interrupted him, asking why he was carrying his bed on the Sabbath Day. They sternly reminded him that it was not lawful to bear burdens on the Lord's day. in his joy, the man had forgotten it was the Sabbath; yet he felt no condemnation for obeying the command of One who had such power of God.

This last one on pg 203 is referring to Jesus forgetting it was the Sabbath

In the above paragraph Ellen White capitizes "ONE" as a reference for Christ - the way she so often did in her writings (ok maybe she only did it a zillion times -- not a zillion and one times)

But that aside - where in the WORLD did you come up with "Jesus forgetting"???? That is a spin I have never seen anyone try before.

More details please.:applause:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hi All

She is infallible as a human while in the fleshly body, we know this so why debate it. Yet her writings cannot be with error if she is being held to the standard of a prophet or messenger of God. Or called an authoritative truth. Her official label with the church is Messenger from God.

With regards to plagarism, EW spent time in jail for this. From my limited research years ago, I wasn't convinced she committed this crime. In that day, imho, she may have contacted the authors for their permission to use their works. ..

Joe I am not inclined to take the time to unravel the story telling - but that "in jail" and "infallible human" statement works better if you provide some kind of legal/historic document.

Show that "somebody" actually believes it!

Having said that- I leave you to your devices.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now for the real question given the title of this thread.

I have been posting on this board for a number of years - always sharing my views in the sola-scriptura form that SDAs demand for the support of Bible doctrine.

I don't drag Ellen White statements in as "proof" of my doctrinal positions and except for this thread - I don't know of anyone here that has tried to refute my doctrinal views using Ellen White.

So why so much focus here on Ellen White AS IF that had ever been a basis for ANY position I have ever posted??

Why so much interest there?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Now for the real question given the title of this thread.

I have been posting on this board for a number of years - always sharing my views in the sola-scriptura form that SDAs demand for the support of Bible doctrine.

I don't drag Ellen White statements in as "proof" of my doctrinal positions and except for this thread - I don't know of anyone here that has tried to refute my doctrinal views using Ellen White.

So why so much focus here on Ellen White AS IF that had ever been a basis for ANY position I have ever posted??

Why so much interest there?

in Christ,

Bob

You must be commended brother for your discipline having never used EGW as any source of authority for your arguments.

These discussions about EGW come up from time to time. It is good for Christians to understand who she was and what she taught. Let the reader judge for themselves.

One thing that always puizzled me though brother is if SDA doctrine is sola scripture then what need is there for elevating EGW's writings to "God's message"?

If Ellen only repeated what the scriptures have already stated then whats the big deal? I can do that and so can you.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Joe]

In the above paragraph Ellen White capitizes "ONE" as a reference for Christ - the way she so often did in her writings (ok maybe she only did it a zillion times -- not a zillion and one times)

But that aside - where in the WORLD did you come up with "Jesus forgetting"???? That is a spin I have never seen anyone try before.

More details please.:applause:


in Christ,

Bob

Yeah, the last example was incorrect, the man is not referring to Jesus like I thought.
It didn't seem too far fetched with EH writing about Jesus having siblings though.
Thanks for questioning it With that, and your request for more details, here are a few more excerpts from the Desire of Ages. This book, along with Steps to Christ (an excellent book) was reading recommended to me before baptism.
Anyway, here is a few more since you asked for details and clapped. I appreciate your willingness and desire to know the truth.

page 293-294 While Jesus was preparing the disciples for their ordination, one who had not been summoned urged his presence among them. It was Judas Iscariot, a man who professed to be a follower of Christ. He now came forward, soliciting a place in this inner circle of disciples. With great earnest and parent sincerity he declared, "Master, I will follow Thee wherever whithsoever Thou goest" Jesus neither repulsed nor welcomed him,but uttered only the mournful words: "The foxes have holes, and the birds of air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where he lay His head" Matt 8:19,20. Judas believed Jesus to be the Messiah; and by joining the apostles, he hoped to secure a high position in the new kingdom.

Pg 722 last paragraph

As they passed, a retired spot, they saw at the foot a lifeless tree, the body of Judas. It was a most revolting sight. HIs weight had broken the cord by which he had hanged himself to the tree. In falling, the body had been horribly mangled, and dogs were now devouring it.
Dogs?

pg 592 The children were foremost in the rejoicing. Jesus had healed their maladies; He had clasped them in His arms, received their kisses of greatful affection, and some of them had fallen asleep upon His breast as He was teaching the people. Now with glad voices, the children sounded His praise.

Ok, I am done now. Thanks for critiquing my last one Hope we move past EH now

 

[Joe]

Joe I am not inclined to take the time to unravel the story telling - but that "in jail" and "infallible human" statement works better if you provide some kind of legal/historic document.

Show that "somebody" actually believes it!

Having said that- I leave you to your devices.

in Christ,

Bob

I wish I had saw this post before answering your first one. I thought I was doing you a favor by spending time to show you the truth. I don't know what "devices" you are referring to or what story telling you are speaking of. EH is considered a prophet or messenger of God, so I consider her writings to be more than just stories. If you feel it was my intention to spread lies in the form of stories, then I suggest you look inward before posting.

 

[Joe]

Now for the real question given the title of this thread.

I have been posting on this board for a number of years - always sharing my views in the sola-scriptura form that SDAs demand for the support of Bible doctrine.

I don't drag Ellen White statements in as "proof" of my doctrinal positions and except for this thread - I don't know of anyone here that has tried to refute my doctrinal views using Ellen White.

So why so much focus here on Ellen White AS IF that had ever been a basis for ANY position I have ever posted??

Why so much interest there?

in Christ,

Bob

Who said that you drag EH as proof of doctrinal positions?
Who said EH was the basis for ANY position you have ever posted?

I don't believe this is true at all.
You always refer to the Bible for your positions, never EH from what I have seen.

 

[Jarthur001]

Now for the real question given the title of this thread.

I have been posting on this board for a number of years - always sharing my views in the sola-scriptura form that SDAs demand for the support of Bible doctrine.

I don't drag Ellen White statements in as "proof" of my doctrinal positions and except for this thread - I don't know of anyone here that has tried to refute my doctrinal views using Ellen White.

So why so much focus here on Ellen White AS IF that had ever been a basis for ANY position I have ever posted??

Why so much interest there?

in Christ,

Bob

In all threads we get to the meat of the matter. It would be a waste of time to debate any other way. I like to push it to the limit and also I kinda like being pushed to the limit. This is why I like this board. We become better thinkers because of it. IT SHOULD BUILD OUR FAITH IN THE END. (Sorry I had the cap locks on, but i'm to lazy to retype) In most cases we take it to the limit, without crossing the line. At times we are hard on one poster. Those that have been around for a while and post more then once a week, have found themselves under the gun at times.

I could like wise ask "why so much focus or John Calvin?"....On the Calvinism threads. OK..i have asked that before. Non Calvinist quote Calvin more than Calvinist do. It seems like others "on the other side of the fence" are more likely to ask what your side believes. That's ok...for this is part of the debate. I do get tried at times of being told what I MUST believe, based on what someone read in a book or web site. I would much rather someone just ask me what I believe and not base it on a label. Yet it is I that takes on that label of Calvinism, so I must be willing to take some misunderstanding with it, for it is my faith.

Bob, you as well must expect some focus on SDA and all its teachings, and the teachings that ARE SAID to be SDA by others. White is PART of SDA, so white will be asked about if you claim SDA teachings. Its not as much about YOU, but more about looking from the other side of the fence at the SDA. Therefore we ask.

 

[TCGreek]

She compiled her letters to individuals and called them "the Testimonies" claiming that they were messages from God to individuals and were also of use to the SDA denomination.

She wrote commentary on the Life of Christ and called it "The DESIRE of Ages" a name she also applied to Christ.

She never claimed to "write Christ" or "be Christ" just to write a book about Him.

So not sure where that one is going on your part.

in Christ,

Bob

According to Revelation 19:10, Do SDAs consider EGW the "spirit of prophecy"?

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

All my posts are fallible -- and as it turns out - all my posts are also correct.

That would make you the absolute holder of truth, pretty big claim for a fallen man.

So consequently - there will be no "Bob pointing to errors in his posts" --

I just asked for three places where you believe Ellen White to be wrong.

Is that because you would like to spin the meaning of "infallible" to be the same as "correct" no matter what it really means??

If you don't believe she is infallible, you should be able to see some of her errors, they are quite obvious when compared to scripture.

BGTF

 

[Ed Edwards]

According to Revelation 19:10, Do SDAs consider
EGW the "spirit of prophecy"?

Your question seems to show you haven't looked at
the scripture closely. Be carefull here, the key
difference is NOT IN THE GREEK but in the Sacred
KJVs.

Revelation 19:10 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And I fell before his feete, to worship him: but he said vnto me, See thou doe it not: I am thy fellowe seruant, and one of thy brethren, which haue the testimonie of Iesus. Worship God: for the testimonie of Iesus is the Spirit of prophecie.

Revelation 19:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I fell at his feete to worship him: And he said vnto me, See thou doe it not: I am thy fellow seruant, and of thy brethren, that haue the testimonie of Iesus, Worship God: for the testimony of Iesus, is the spirit of prophecie.

The KJVs show that the 'spirit' is isn't the
Holy Spirit. The 'spirit of prophecy' is defined here as 'the
testimony of Jesus'. in either case. It isn't talking about
fore-telling of someone's future but the forth-telling
of the 'testimony of Jesus'.

I think we could find that the 'testimony of Jesus'
is a requirement for we Christians is told in the Bible.

So, Ed the Baptist says: Ellen White had the 'testimony of Jesus'
for I have read it in her book I have (The Great Contraversity).
Ellen White is NOT inerrant but she didn't make to many
errors.

I can't believe I said a dozen pages back that I have
the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy and nobody got on my case.
Is it that cause Ed the Baptist is right a lot?

SDA doctrines are within one Sigma (one standard deviation)
of orthodox Baptist - in fact, I find that if you spread out
all the doctrines called 'Baptist' the SDA lies in the spectrum.