Seventh-Day Adventism

[TCGreek]

Your question seems to show you haven't looked at
the scripture closely. Be carefull here, the key
difference is NOT IN THE GREEK but in the Sacred
KJVs.

Revelation 19:10 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And I fell before his feete, to worship him: but he said vnto me, See thou doe it not: I am thy fellowe seruant, and one of thy brethren, which haue the testimonie of Iesus. Worship God: for the testimonie of Iesus is the Spirit of prophecie.

Revelation 19:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I fell at his feete to worship him: And he said vnto me, See thou doe it not: I am thy fellow seruant, and of thy brethren, that haue the testimonie of Iesus, Worship God: for the testimony of Iesus, is the spirit of prophecie.

The KJVs show that the 'spirit' is isn't the
Holy Spirit. The 'spirit of prophecy' is defined here as 'the
testimony of Jesus'. in either case. It isn't talking about
fore-telling of someone's future but the forth-telling
of the 'testimony of Jesus'.

I think we could find that the 'testimony of Jesus'
is a requirement for we Christians is told in the Bible.

So, Ed the Baptist says: Ellen White had the 'testimony of Jesus'
for I have read it in her book I have (The Great Contraversity).
Ellen White is NOT inerrant but she didn't make to many
errors.

I can't believe I said a dozen pages back that I have
the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy and nobody got on my case.
Is it that cause Ed the Baptist is right a lot?

SDA doctrines are within one Sigma (one standard deviation)
of orthodox Baptist - in fact, I find that if you spread out
all the doctrines called 'Baptist' the SDA lies in the spectrum.

1. Thanks Ed, but I want some who is an SDA to answer from their history and membership.

2. Good analysis, but they view it differently.

 

[BobRyan]

You must be commended brother for your discipline having never used EGW as any source of authority for your arguments.

It is more than a question of "discipline" - if you look at the 28 statements of belief - they also use scripture to make their case.

SDAs are not taught to establish doctrinal statements by going to Ellen White either in baptismal classes or in church schools. So those who resort to that method are simply ignoring what they have been trained/told/instructed to do regarding the sola-scriptura models used to establish doctrine.

One thing that always puizzled me though brother is if SDA doctrine is sola scripture then what need is there for elevating EGW's writings to "God's message"?

Basically it has nothing to do with Ellen White - rather you are asking a question about what God says HE is doing in HIS sovereignly chosen way of giving the spiritual gift of prophecy.

In Numbers 12 God says "If there is a prophet among you I WILL make Myself known to them by vision or dream"

Peter states "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God"

This defines the MECHANISM of the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy and it is the REASON that God says to listen to His prophets. The authorotative value of the gift is not in the person -- it is in the source - God.

So whether it is Deborah, Miriam, Anna, Aaron, Agabus, Philip's 4 daughters OR even those in Corinth (1Cor 14:1) the same rule applies.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you as well must expect some focus on SDA and all its teachings, and the teachings that ARE SAID to be SDA by others. White is PART of SDA, so white will be asked about if you claim SDA teachings. Its not as much about YOU, but more about looking from the other side of the fence at the SDA. Therefore we ask.

And that is only fair - after all I have been pretty direct with Calvinists, Roman Catholics, OSAS, pretrib rapture etc so I am in no position to complain that the group is ready to ask me hard questions about my own beliefs.

No problem with that at all.

But if you look at SDA doctrines -- then there is no "doctrine of Ellen White" there is rather a doctrine on "spiritual gifts" and also the claim that Ellen White is someone who had the gift of prophecy based on her messages passing the test of a prophet -- the first of which being that they are doctrinally correct when tested against the Bible (Isaiah 8:19). And she had a lot to say about SDA doctrine.

Now obviously to get to that conclusion you would first have to decide if SDA doctrine was correct. If it is not Biblically accurate the discussion about Ellen White being a true prophet is over. Pick a doctrine (Sabbath or free will, or perseverance in sanctification or...) -- evaluate it and see if Ellen White claimed to have a message from God that turns out to be favorable for that doctrine. Game over.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

According to Revelation 19:10, Do SDAs consider EGW the "spirit of prophecy"?

No "God" alone (in this case God the Holy Spirit) IS "The Spirit of Prophecy".

But there was a book by that same TITLE written early in Ellen White's ministry and often she is referenced as the author of her book. It may have been clear for those in the mid-1800's to get that distinction but it is misleading for readers today.

The main point SDAs always argue from Rev 19 is that the angel claims to have the testimonhy of Jesus which he says is "the Spirit of prophecy" and that this prophetic gift is something that Ellen White also HAD -- Obviously no SDA has ever claimed to believe that the angel of Rev 19 speaking to John was "claiming to have Ellen White" by claiming to have "the Spirit of prophecy" or the "Testimony of Jesus"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
All my posts are fallible -- and as it turns out - all my posts are also correct.

That would make you the absolute holder of truth, pretty big claim for a fallen man.

Really??? I HAVE to post ERROR or else I am "absolute holder of truth for mankind"???:laugh:

I just asked for three places where you believe Ellen White to be wrong.

I see - because she too MUST teach error or ELSE she is the absolute holder of truth for mankind???

Where does this come from??

If you don't believe she is infallible, you should be able to see some of her errors

If you believe that "INFALLIBLE" does not mean "incapable of error" but simply means "correct" and that anyone who IS CORRECT must be infallible -- please show some authority that agrees with you in that definition.

So far no dictionary I have found uses the term "infallible" for "correct".

RATHER they all say that infallible means "INCAPABLE of error".

This is why I say ALL my posts are fallible even though all turn out to be CORRECT.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So, Ed the Baptist says: Ellen White had the 'testimony of Jesus'
for I have read it in her book I have (The Great Controversy).
Ellen White is NOT inerrant but she didn't make to many
errors.

That is also correct - in Rev 19 the testimony of Jesus is defined as "the spirit of prophecy" which is a statement about how that testimony concerning Christ has been given -- through the gift of prophecy which is given through the Holy Spirit according to 1Cor 12.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Ellen White had the 'testimony of Jesus'
for I have read it in her book I have (The Great Controversy).
Ellen White is NOT inerrant but she didn't make to many
errors.

Not debating, just a serious question.

If one were a true prophet of God; would they make any mistakes?

 

[BobRyan]

BTW - just to stir the pot a bit more (as if it is not enough already)

Post 15 of the thread that actually was started just to talk about Ellen White (authortative writings thread - thread not started by me) I posted this -

Examples of things she claimed in the form of messages from God -

1. The 2300 years of Dan 8 ended in 1844
2. The judgment of Dan 7, 2Cor5, Rom2 started in 1844
3. The Ten Commandments are still valid - including the 4th
4. Catholicism and Protestantism would eventually cooperate well together instead of being hostile to each other as they were in the 19th century.
5. The United States would eventually become the dominant Nation Power on earth.
6. Civil liberties in the U.S would be more and more restricted to promote safety and stability in US society.
7. A strong Christian "right" in the U.S would evolve that would seek political influence, blurring the line between separation of church and state.
8. Satan would use the confusion over the state of the dead as "dormant" to convince Christians that they are seeing dead humans talking to them.

9. No pretrib rapture.

10. God takes the saints to heaven after the tribulation and kills all the wicked that remain -- so desolate earth.

Etc Etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Not debating, just a serious question.

If one were a true prophet of God; would they make any mistakes?

Good question.

Moses struck the rock twice when only supposed to hit it once.

Nathan told David to build the temple - then God corrected him.

Peter was corrected by Paul.

Miriam and Aaron whined about Moses

John the baptizer asked if Christ was really the right guy.

Ellen White said she actually believed the shut-door doctrine for a while (started by some Millerites after the Oct 22, 1844 event passed) and she was not the first one in the SDA church to accept the doctrine on God's 4th commandent - others had to bring her into it.

So "infallible people" are not the pre-requisite for being given the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

Bob,

Examples of things she claimed in the form of messages from God -

1. The 2300 years of Dan 8 ended in 1844
2. The judgment of Dan 7, 2Cor5, Rom2 started in 1844

Nothing could be more indicative of scripture being "poured into human molds" over and against scholarly exegesis than this prophecy. Of course, gullibility plays a big part in SDA "prophecy" -- how would anyone ever be able to disprove what is or isn't happening in heaven? :laugh:

It so happens that the 2300 refers to 1150 days during which the twice daily sacrifices are interrupted by the worship of the "image of the beast" until Israel is allowed to return to Jerusalem and cleanse the temple prior to Armageddon. That is, it is a TRIBULATION prophecy with absolutely NO application to the church!

skypair

 

[DHK]

Good question.

Moses struck the rock twice when only supposed to hit it once.

No human is perfect in their obedience to God. The question was asked about prophecy not obedience. There is no prophecy involved in the command to hit the rock. Moses was not prophesying. This is a red herring Bob, and not an answer to the question.

Nathan told David to build the temple - then God corrected him.

This has nothing to do with prophecy, but a matter of obedience. Again another red herring that does not pertain to the question asked of you.

Peter was corrected by Paul.

Again it is a matter of obedience and has nothing to do with prophecy. Another red herring.

Miriam and Aaron whined about Moses

So they complained. So what! That has nothing to do with prophecy. It has to do with their submission to God.

John the baptizer asked if Christ was really the right guy.

John was discouraged. He was in prison. What has that got to do with prophecy? Another red herring.

Ellen White said she actually believed the shut-door doctrine for a while (started by some Millerites after the Oct 22, 1844 event passed) and she was not the first one in the SDA church to accept the doctrine on God's 4th commandent - others had to bring her into it.

So "infallible people" are not the pre-requisite for being given the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy.

The facts are these Bob:
False prophets in the OT were stoned to death.
EGW did make false prophecies. If she lived in the OT, she also would have been stoned to death.
It is not simply a matter of making mistakes or disobedience. It has to do with the nature of the prophecy itself. If the prophecy turns out to be false even one time the he or she is a false prophet and ought to be stoned to death (OT law) which you claim to keep.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I was reading this scripture for a discussion on another
venue. But it fits in real good here:

1 Thessalonians :20-22 (TNIV = Today's New International Version):
Do not treat prophecies with contempt
but test them all; hold on to what is good,
reject whatever is harmful.

I note some readings that are just NOT there:

1 Thessalonians :20-22 (TNIV +variant1):
Treat prophets with contempt
test them all; jail those good,
hang those harmful.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Really??? I HAVE to post ERROR or else I am "absolute holder of truth for mankind"???

Your claim to being error-free is error in itself. To state categorically that you have no error is to sit in the pope’s chair. All that you can state is that you believe you are not in error.

I see - because she too MUST teach error or ELSE she is the absolute holder of truth for mankind???

Where does this come from??

Unless you are doing ALL of your thinking with Ellen White’s brain, you will have some differences of understanding, I am just curious as to what they are.

If you believe that "INFALLIBLE" does not mean "incapable of error" but simply means "correct" and that anyone who IS CORRECT must be infallible -- please show some authority that agrees with you in that definition.

So far no dictionary I have found uses the term "infallible" for "correct".

RATHER they all say that infallible means "INCAPABLE of error".

Here is a dictionary definition of infallible

in•fal•li•ble –adjective
1. absolutely trustworthy or sure: an infallible rule.
2. unfailing in effectiveness or operation; certain: an infallible remedy.
3. not fallible; exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements: an infallible principle.
4.Roman Catholic Church. immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.

Is Ellen White absolutely trustworthy? Is Ellen White's judgment exempt from liability to error? Is Ellen White immune from fallacy?

Then with regards to correctness, is Ellen White correct about annihilation of the wicked and a denial of eternal torment? Is Ellen White correct with regards to investigative judgment? Is Ellen White correct with regards to assurance of salvation?


BGTF

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I was reading this scripture for a discussion on another
venue. But it fits in real good here:

1 Thessalonians :20-22 (TNIV = Today's New International Version):
Do not treat prophecies with contempt
but test them all; hold on to what is good,
reject whatever is harmful.

I note some readings that are just NOT there:

1 Thessalonians :20-22 (TNIV +variant1):
Treat prophets with contempt
test them all; jail those good,
hang those harmful.

I don't get it. What's the point?

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan).....

Basically it has nothing to do with Ellen White - rather you are asking a question about what God says HE is doing in HIS sovereignly chosen way of giving the spiritual gift of prophecy.

Maybe I don't clearly understand just what the gift of prophecy is.

Is it different than giving new revelations? Is it giving the already written word? Is it predicting events? Just what is the definition of this?

I was under the impression that it was a gift of being able to understand and expound the given scriptures, to preach and teach. I did not think it was the same as receiving a new word from God to deliver unto the people, say like John did when he wrote the letter of Revelation for God. John wrote things that were never written before, but this does not disqualify John because he did not write all things that already had been written before (you said that a prophet must write or say those things that agree with scripture, I believe).

I still do not understand what value EGW is giving to the SDA doctrine if the SDA doctrine is based solely on the word of God.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

I don't get it. What's the point?

Most people postilng here are judging the PROPHET (Ellen White)
not the PROPHECY (those prophecies /teachings/ from her
books). The scripture I quoted shows we should do exactly
the opposite:

Test the prophecies & not the prophetess.
That is the way we do it under the New Covenant
(not under the Old Covenant).

God can speak to us through even errant prophets (teachers).
What ever happened to the Baptist FAIR PLAY ideas that
come from PRIESTHOOD OF THE BELIEVER & SOUL COMPETENCY?

Is it KICK-a-SDA for Khrist week? :tear:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Most people postilng here are judging the PROPHET (Ellen White)
not the PROPHECY (those prophecies /teachings/ from her
books). The scripture I quoted shows we should do exactly
the opposite:

Test the prophecies & not the prophetess.
That is the way we do it under the New Covenant
(not under the Old Covenant).

God can speak to us through even errant prophets (teachers).
What ever happened to the Baptist FAIR PLAY ideas that
come from PRIESTHOOD OF THE BELIEVER & SOUL COMPETENCY?

Is it KICK-a-SDA for Khrist week? :tear:

I have before proven from SDA literature that Mrs. White is consider on par with OT prophets. Therefore, I judge by whether or not what she predicts (and you know she predicted events, et.) if the thing comes to pass. I have read her prophesies in that regard and what she predicted did not come to pass. Therefore, I am given from God's infallible Word the knowledge that she has spoken presumptously and I do not need to fear her (in the Biblical sense).

My brother, I spent 4 years in the neo-prophetic movement with those who were regarded as eminant prophets: Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, Bobby Conner, and others. Some of these were orignal Kansas City prophets. I mention this because I do not come from a predisposition to reject or despise prophesies as you might suppose.

The focus and emphasis in that movement on the gift of prophecy was extraordinary. NONE were free from error in what they prophesied, but I learned to overlook it. Eventually, extra-biblical and even un-biblical doctrine began to be spread. White has done this with her doctrine of Investigative Judgement and other doctrines. The SDA movement even has gone as far as Jehovah Witnesses and published an altered Bible that changes and adds to the Word of God to better line up with White's teaching.

By God's grace I got out of the prophetic movement and found great rest and preace that the Scriptures, and the Scriptures ALONE, are sufficient for all things.

RB

 

[Ed Edwards]

Is it different than giving new revelations?
Is it giving the already written word?
Is it predicting events?
Just what is the definition of this?

YOUR SPIRITUAL GIFTS (Gospel Light, 1995)
by C. Peter Wagner says on page 111:

A. Prophecy. The gift of prophecy is the special
ability that God gives to certain members of
the Body of Christ to receive and communicate
an immediate message of God to His people
through a divinely anointed utterance.

Perchance some misunderstand a scripture and
make their doctrine fit their misunderstanding
of that scripture.

2 Peter 1:20 (KJV1611 Edition):
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture
is of any priuate Interpretation:

To me this means that nothing written down
in the Bible is for Ed alone.

('any' here is a bad choice. Even this interpertation
from a paraphrase is clearer than 'any')


2 Peter 1:20 (TNIV = Today's New International Version)
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture
came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.

Whatever this scripture might mean, it definely
does NOT mean:

An individual can get nothing personal
from the Bible.

The gift of prophecy is either in a group or
1-on-1 telling specifically what the Scripture means
in general. So we sit around doing just that
in our discussions here.
The gift of prophecy is based on the Written
Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit of the
Living Word of God.

I still do not understand what value EGW
is giving to the SDA doctrine if the SDA doctrine
is based solely on the word of God.

She is giving a prophecy (now sometimes dated)
of what the Written Word of God means specifically
for SDA believers.

Recall that inerrant = incapable of making an
error. The opposite of Inerrant is NOT errant;
'perfect' is the opposite of 'errant'.

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe I don't clearly understand just what the gift of prophecy is.

Is it different than giving new revelations? Is it giving the already written word? Is it predicting events? Just what is the definition of this?

Good question. Agabus "predicted an event".

Mary and Elizabeth in the NT "announced an event"

Not sure whether Philip's daughters were making predictions - nor if those in 1Cor 14 were doing it.

What I DO know from Numbers 12 is that whatever their revelation it was via a "Dream or a vision" as God said in Number 12:6.

I was under the impression that it was a gift of being able to understand and expound the given scriptures, to preach and teach.

Not according to scripture.

"I will make Myself known to them in a dream or vision".

Look at all the cases in scripture where God TELLS someone to prophesy -- what do "they do"?

John wrote things that were never written before, but this does not disqualify John because he did not write all things that already had been written before (you said that a prophet must write or say those things that agree with scripture, I believe)

Yes they can not contradict the teaching of scripture

Isaiah 8:19 "To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light from God"

.

I still do not understand what value EGW is giving to the SDA doctrine if the SDA doctrine is based solely on the word of God.

Her contribution was not in giving new doctrine nor even in defining SDA doctrine. Rather it was in revealing details about the future, details about the past, and primarily in correcting individuals - guiding the church in starting education ministries, health ministries, schools of evangelism and squashing fanatacism as the early group got started. (For example there was a "holy flesh" movement that tried to get started among early SDAs)

Very often her writings to individuals were private letters "Bro S I saw in the night vision that you were ...." in many case these were things known only to the person she was correcting. Sometimes to a husband who was too harsh and critical to his wife, sometimes to a wife who was too harsh with her children, or prone to depression or whose cooking was ruining the health of her family.

I met a family member of one of those people. Their family owned a lot of land in South Africa at the time that Ellen White wrote to their family issuing statements of correction.

It was a very interesting testimony that he gave.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

The SDA movement even has gone as far
as Jehovah Witnesses and published
an altered Bible that changes and adds
to the Word of God to better line up with White's teaching.

I have studied this statement before and find
that CLEAR WORD is not much more than
my old faithful Schofield Notes (revised).
It is NOT a translation of the Bible.

I have ain my hand the New World Translation
of the Holy Scripture -- that is a JW translation
of the Bible.

I'd like to see the CLEAR WORD document
before I make a final judgement on it, but you
just got my interium judgement: CLEAR WORD
is Bible + comentary NOT a translation.

By God's grace I got out of that movement and found great rest and preace that the Scriptures, and the Scriptures ALONE, are sufficient for all things.

Good for you -- good example of practicing Soul Liberty &
Priesthood of the Believer -- good example of being
a BAPTIST Christian.
I never got in the SDA movement.
Do you still read men's ideas NOT in scripture?

Here is my recomendation for a "men's ideas"
that is good to read:

HOW TO STUDY THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF
(Harvest House, 1998 Edition) by Tim LaHaye
/better than the other books of LaHaye,
especially his fiction/.