Seventh-Day Adventism

[Joe]

Oh Ed, you are funny :laugh:

I don't see anything constructive about being hard on anyone.
I don't like it when someone doesn't answer a simple yes or no (not talking of Bob, haven't read his posts enough) or tries to deviate from answering it by trying to ask a question of you first. It's rude. I don't like sarcasm either.
When one directs a question at someone, it's common courtesy to allow that person to answer without interrupting. My questions were simple yes or no's
but Bob answered others and didn't mine, I guess he decided to go to bed.

 

[AAA]

n/t...tagged


Thanks for the link: exadventist.com

 

[BobRyan]

Bob

Will you answer my two questions with a simple yes or no. No explanations needed.
Do you believe Ellen White is a prophet?

A Messenger from God?

Thanks,
Joe

Joe -- sorry I missed this one yesterday.

Yes I believe Ellen White had the spiritual gift listed in 1Cor 12 as prophesy and also seen to be present in the church in 1Cor 14 "desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" - a church in which "EACH one has a revelation or teaching or tongue".

This would be the same as Agabus in the NT, Anna in the NT, Philips four daughters in the NT etc. A non-canonical prophet.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I pray for BobRyan every day -- have been
for three years or so here. I pray for him to have a good
success.

Hey Ed that is very kind of you. Thank you for sharing that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

no he never said she was...this is why I ask.

Bob in your own words...Was Whites writings fallible?

In Acts 17:11 the teaching of Paul was being tested against scripture "sola scriptura" to see IF the things spoken to them by Paul were SO.

Even in the case of Paul they did not start with "whatever Paul says is infallible so just believe it" - how much more is it the case with a non-canonical writer like Ellen White?

The point is that only God is infallible. If the message is truly from God then IT must be correct -- and to know that you have to TEST it against the Bible just as they did in Acts 17:11.

1. That is the approach I take with Ellen White --

2. She had a lot to say on subjects that are in line with what SDA doctrine states -- claiming that this was a message from God. So IF SDA doctrine is incorrect (from a sola scriptura POV) on those doctrines that she endorsed specifically as something God gave a message about -- then she is a false prophet.

This is why I keep saying that this is much easier than many suppose. No SDA would argue that if you are STARTING from a non-SDA doctrinal view of scripture THEN you should find Ellen White's messages claimed to have been from God - to be in harmony with your view of scripture.

How much more direct can this be??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Question to HP -- a non-SDA

Let me ask you. Do you believe white had no wrong in her writings? Very harmless to ask, and it deals with the OP.

Do you?

Again - I don't understand this line of reasoning given that non-SDAs are NON-SDAs and that Ellen White's messages were very much in line with SDA doctrine.

HOW in the world can anyone expect a non-SDA to be doctrinally satisified with SDA Doctrine????

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Uh, which part of 'typified' are we having trouble with here?

The scape-goat was a type of what?
Ellen White thought the scape-goat was a
type of Satan, the author of sin & rebellion.

That is best interpretation of what the Bible says on that point. Whether Ellen White thought the same thing is beside the point.

(I think we had an entire thread on that subject without needing to ask Ellen White what she thought about it):thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Did White write anything in her books that was wrong? Or, must we hold White as if she made no error, just as we do the Bible?

For some reason I get the idea their are a few people that wish we would NOT ask this. For some reason I get the idea some want to just move on. Bob does not have to answer, But I want to give him a chance. Or maybe another SDA would like to step up. If it is what they believe, they will not hide from it, but be proud, for it is their faith. If it is not what they believe, they will want to say..."no...white did make some mistakes in her books...but still she is a good writer"...or something like that.

Are Whites books without error?

This is the same question I am attempting to have answered in the thread "Authorative Writings" I started for this very purpose.

I have no problem with White as being a Christian author for right living. But what I have tried to get answered is her writings concerning christian doctrines. Are they fallible or not according to the SDA church? Why can't this answer be a straight "yes" or "no". I always get the merry go round!!

Are the writings (not EGW) infallible? Yes or no?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

In Acts 17:11 the teaching of Paul was being tested against scripture "sola scriptura" to see IF the things spoken to them by Paul were SO.

Even in the case of Paul they did not start with "whatever Paul says is infallible so just believe it" - how much more is it the case with a non-canonical writer like Ellen White?

The point is that only God is infallible. If the message is truly from God then IT must be correct -- and to know that you have to TEST it against the Bible just as they did in Acts 17:11.

I always get the merry go round!!

Are the writings (not EGW) infallible? Yes or no?

God Bless! :thumbs:

I just love it when you claim to be confused over the easy stuff. Are you pretending to say that after reading my post above that i appear to say that "Ellen White is GOD and GOD alone is infallible, so maybe I mean Ellen White is infallible no matter what"???:laugh:

Going back to the "Authorotative writings thread" started as a way to discuss Ellen White --

ALL of her writings are fallable. How much easier can this be??

But to the extent that her messages STAND the test of scripture claimed as being from God - then they are CORRECT. God alone is INFALLIBLE.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Are the writings (not EGW) infallible? Yes or no?

BR: The point is that only God is infallible.

HP: The Merry-go-round you feel you are on is one of your own making. This is the second time BR has stated this in the last few hours. What’s our point Steaver? If God only is infallible, how does this not answer your question directly?

I would like to comment about the ‘eye witnesses’ mentioned earlier, that were less than flattering about some actions of those involved in the SDA movement. I am not defending or judging any actions of Ellen White or any others in particular, but I would add some caution in judging them as some are obviously doing. There has not been a real movement of God that I have read about in which there have not been some strange antics involved. Read about the revivals of religion this planet has been privileged to encounter.

We should be careful with our judgment of what we think we see or the testimonies of what others say they think they saw and certainly exercise caution in who or what we accredit the strange actions of those involved. We may be found to be at direct antipodes with God’s very Holy Spirit in the end. That is not a place I desire to be found. I will always try to error on the side of caution in this regard.

Examine the case of those mentioned in Acts at Pentecost. Eye witnesses claimed they were drunk! So much for the validity of some eye witnesses. I personally might wonder about any that have not done anything in the Spirit that would be seen by others as strange or unusual.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

We all have witnessed how so many churches today are shying away from their old titles of Baptist, Assembly of God, Nazarene etc. in adoption new names less likely to stir up old controversy. Could it be that some are indeed in need of, and possibly long over due, of following suit? Certainly no one on this list would be critical of that would they?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Ed: It is hard to be hard on a person for whom one prays
every day.

HP: I wonder how God would transform all of us if in fact the same could be said of the rest of us following your lead? Would there be any besides myself that would vow to pray for each one they communicate with on the list? That might even make a good requirement for posting.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Robertson is his book "The White Truth" which was a reponse to a book called "The White Lie" which exposed White's plagairism, Robertson wrote:

""The influence of the spirit of prophecy is woven into the warp and woof of Adventist faith, life and organization . . . What we are as a church is a reflection of our faith in the divine authority evident in the writings of Ellen G. White."

What does SDAism teach about White's "inspiration" ?

Is Ellen White's inspiration equal to that of the Bible?

Her inspiration is equal in quality [p. 8] to the inspiration of the Bible, but the function and purpose of Ellen White's inspiration is different from that of the Bible. A parallel is found in Scripture. The prophet Nathan was as fully inspired as King David, but Nathan's inspiration had a different function from David's. David's inspired writings became a part of the canon of Scripture. Nathan's inspiration did not result in any canonical writings.

One cannot make differences in the quality of inspiration because inspiration is either present or absent, so that various manifestations of it cannot be distinguished by degrees. The Holy Spirit was just as careful in the superintendence of Nathan's inspired messages as in David's writings, although, in harmony with the divine purpose, only the latter were incorporated into the canon.

Ellen White's writings do not function as a standard or rule for doctrine. The Bible does function in this manner. In this sense Ellen White does not have equal doctrinal authority with the Bible.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/whitelie.html#bible

According to the White Estate folks, White's writings are of the same quality as Scripture but not for the same purpose. Huh?

My initial impression is that the SDA church, or at least the author of the above quote, does not understand divine inpsiration. The word inspiration in our BIble is a poor translation, IMO, of Theopneustos. It appears that the SDA church is teaching that White's writings are Theopneustos but given for a different function than the Scriptures.

When the Scripture speaks of inspiration it is Theopneustos, God-breathed, or breathed out by God. Whiteestate would do well to remember that what they learned about others being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking prophetically, they learned from Theopneustos Scripture.

It is then greatly confusing, or worse, double-speak, to say that White's writings/speech is of the same quality as Holy Scripture yet not profitable for doctrine. The fact that the Apostle's words are God-breathed makes them Scripture. If they are saying White's words are of the same quality, then the words should be infallible, inerrant, and Scripture. To make the distinction they did casts doubt on the very Scriptures themselves.

 

[skypair]

Galatians 5 "you have BEEN SEVERED FROM Christ, fallen FROM Grace".

Bob -- it is possible to lose your "earthly" salvation and not lose your eternal salvation. This is your error -- calling lost sanctification as if it were lost justification.

Simply put, we are "saved by His death" eternally (OSAS, justification) and "much more saved by His life" in this life, Rom 5:10 (sanctification). It's the difference between the condition of your soul eternally and of your spirit which must be "revived daily," 1Cor 15:31.

Know it or not (even if YOU are saved) YOU are severed right now from the body of Christ by your sin --- even the sin you commit here in your biblical ignorance. Do you notice that the body has severed YOU? That you are "as a stranger?"

skypair

 

[skypair]

A much more DIRECT approach for SDA bashing would be to simply read the SDA doctrinal statements published for all to read and oppose them from scripture instead of trying to dream up snippet-broken-context statements from Ellen White -- since I will also be able to access about a zillion more showing the actual facts in the matter.

Bob --- SDA, like Calvinism, is just another "systematic theology," a "mold" into which MAN has poured scripture trying to describe God logically or philosophically. Let's start with scripture and not SDA doctrinal statements.

skypair

 

[Eliyahu]

Galatians 5 "you have BEEN SEVERED FROM Christ, fallen FROM Grace".

And that means no salvation.

But it also means formerly JOINED TO Christ then SEVERED FROM Christ.

As the OSAS thread points out - a lot of non-SDAS see that truth clearly. No surprise there.

Everytime when we commit sins, we are fallen from the Grace.
According to your theology, everytime when we commit sins, we lose the salvation, then we get salvation again by good works again, then we lose the salvation again. It means that your Holy Spirit comes in and goes out every day. My God the Holy Spirit is not hanky panky like that !

Otherwise, you may not commit any sins at all so that you may not lose the salvation until death. You may excuse that you don't commit the un-repented sins. But even it is a lie when we read 1 John 1.

2. YOu still believe that the Scape Goat is the symbol for Jesus Christ.

Nope. The Scape Goat is NOT a sin offering NOT a symbol for Christ and is NOT sacrificed in Lev 16.

"THE SIN offering" is uniquely the identifier for "The Lord's Goat" in Lev 16.

I am going to have to go with that definition as scripture gives it..

In Christ,

Bob

Aaron confessed all the inequities of Israel unto the Scape Goat ( Lev 16:21). Do you confess your sins to Satan? or to Jesus Christ?

Did God need Satan for the redemption work?

 

[Joe]

Joe -- sorry I missed this one yesterday.

Yes I believe Ellen White had the spiritual gift listed in 1Cor 12 as prophesy and also seen to be present in the church in 1Cor 14 "desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" - a church in which "EACH one has a revelation or teaching or tongue".

This would be the same as Agabus in the NT, Anna in the NT, Philips four daughters in the NT etc. A non-canonical prophet.

in Christ,

Bob

I didn't ask if you felt she had the gift of prophesy or any details, I only asked you two simple questions in which I wanted a simple yes or no. Well try again, but please be courteous enough to let me know you don't want to answer. I'll do the same, it's our right not to answer anything we choose.

Again, WITH A SIMPLE YES OR A NO. That's all, no details, no explanations.

1. Do you believe Ellen White is a Messenger from God?
2. Do you believe she is/was a Prophet?

A few posts back I gave my opinion concerning people who avoid yes or no questions, so expect me to follow through with expecting that courtesy from you.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

We all have witnessed how so many churches today are shying away from their old titles of Baptist, Assembly of God, Nazarene etc. in adoption new names less likely to stir up old controversy. Could it be that some are indeed in need of, and possibly long over due, of following suit? Certainly no one on this list would be critical of that would they?

Yes, I would. True Christians should be straightforward about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If they are Baptists, then tell people they are Baptists.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Yes, I would. True Christians should be straightforward about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sure, kind of like this, having denied the atonement, Ellen White is currently enduring the torment she did not believe existed.

Martin Luther was saved while he was still in the RC church, not because of it but in spite of it; yet once saved, he left it and testified against it. Those who profess to be the Lord's people among the JW's Mormons SDA's etc. are to do the same.


BGTF

 

[Joe]

We don't know Ellen White is enduring any torment, c'mon now. And what do you mean she denied torment existed BGTF?