Seventh-Day Adventism

[BobRyan]

I have before proven from SDA literature that Mrs. White is consider on par with OT prophets.

That is somewhat misleading.

It is more correct to say "there is only ONE gift of prophecy listed in 1Cor 12 -- either you have it or you don't".

The "multilevels of quality" and/or prophecy myth is simply for those not reading the scriptures and paying attention to the topic at hand.

Therefore, I judge by whether or not what she predicts (and you know she predicted events, et.) if the thing comes to pass. I have read her prophesies in that regard and what she predicted did not come to pass.

Correction again.

IF the prophecy comes to pass (as in the case of the unfolding of American history, the fellowship being established between Catholic and non-Catholic Christian groups, the association between smoking and cancer, outcome of the Civil War ...) then you STILL have to reject her because that does NOT negate the test based on doctrinal alignment with your Baptist, or Catholic, or Presbyterian, or Methodist view of scripture.

So here again - you are not describing the whole picture!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said -
Examples of things she claimed in the form of messages from God -

1. The 2300 years of Dan 8 ended in 1844
2. The judgment of Dan 7, 2Cor5, Rom2 started in 1844

Bob,

Nothing could be more indicative of scripture being "poured into human molds" over and against scholarly exegesis than this prophecy. Of course, gullibility plays a big part in SDA "prophecy" -- how would anyone ever be able to disprove what is or isn't happening in heaven? :laugh:

Let's read Dan 7 and SEE if it is really true that no one here can tell that this is an event taking place IN heaven AFTER the rise of the Roman Empire and BEFORE the 2nd coming.

Dan 7

9 ""I kept looking Until [b]thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat[/b]; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels[/b] were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. [/b]

(A lot of people here are going to figure out that vs 9-10 takes place in heaven)

13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.

(A lot of people here are going to figure out that vs 13 takes place in heaven)

14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

(A lot of people here are going to figure out that vs 14 takes place in heaven)

15 ""As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.
16 ""I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:


17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings[/b] who will arise from the earth.
18 "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, [b]for all ages to come.'

(A lot of people here are going to figure out that vs 15-18 describes events prior to the 2nd coming when the saints take posession)

19 ""Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which

devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

Dan 7
21 ""I kept looking, and [b]that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints

of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

(A lot of people here are going to figure out that vs 21-22 takes place before the 2nd coming and then continues right into the 2nd coming)

23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.

(A lot of people here are going to figure out that vs 23 describes the FOURTH empire listed in Dan 7 -- the one that comes right after the Greek Empire -- the THIRD empire of Dan 7)

Bottom line - this is just not that hard to get.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by I Am Blessed 17
Not debating, just a serious question.

If one were a true prophet of God; would they make any mistakes?

Bob said --

Good question.

Moses struck the rock twice when only supposed to hit it once.

Nathan told David to build the temple - then God corrected him.

Peter was corrected by Paul.

Miriam and Aaron whined about Moses

John the baptizer asked if Christ was really the right guy.

Ellen White said she actually believed the shut-door doctrine for a while (started by some Millerites after the Oct 22, 1844 event passed) and she was not the first one in the SDA church to accept the doctrine on God's 4th commandent - others had to bring her into it.

So "infallible people" are not the pre-requisite for being given the 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy.

No human is perfect in their obedience to God. The question was asked about prophecy not obedience.

Funny - I thought the question was "If one were a true prophet of God; would they make any mistakes"

DHK

There is no prophecy involved in the command to hit the rock. Moses was not prophesying.

God revealed Himself to Moses and instructed him via prophetic vision to do a certain thing - SPEAk TO THE ROCK - but Moses "made a mistake" in not doing exactly as God said.

This is a red herring Bob, and not an answer

Simply not true DHK

Regarding Nathan --

DHK
This has nothing to do with prophecy, but a matter of obedience. Again another red herring

Not true again DHK. David is coming to Nathan BECAUSE Nathan has the role of prophet at the time. David is asking Nathan BECAUSE he wants to know God's view of the matter.

You are not paying attention to the details here DHK.

It is "clearly a mistake" and the question is in regard to "ANY mistakes".

details DHK - details.

Regarding Miriam and Aaron - both PROPHETS and both making the MISTAKE of complaining about Moses saying "are not WE ALSO prophets?"

DHK

So they complained. So what! That has nothing to do with prophecy. It has to do with their submission to God.

The question was whether they would be making "ANY mistakes" and in this case the entire debate was over the gift of prophecy given to the 3 of them.

Details DHK - details.

Concerning John asking about Christ "are you the one we seek or is it another?"

DHK
John was discouraged. He was in prison. What has that got to do with prophecy? Another red herring.

John was a prophet -- John may have been depressed etc - but he began to question Christ.

The facts are these Bob:
False prophets in the OT were stoned to death.
EGW did make false prophecies. If she lived in the OT, she also would have been stoned to death.

In Matt 23 Christ said that HIS prophets were killed by the very people that were supposed to pay attention.

But I also agree that false prophets were stoned.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Really??? I HAVE to post ERROR or else I am "absolute holder of truth for mankind"???

BGTF
Your claim to being error-free is error in itself. To state categorically that you have no error is to sit in the pope’s chair. All that you can state is that you believe you are not in error.

you are missing the point.

"ALL my posts are FALLIBLE" yet it turns out that "ALL my posts are also CORRECT" illustrates the point perfectly. It points out the fallacy of your claim that to be fallible you MUST also post error.

I am simply demonstrating that your assumption does not hold up.

incapable of failure or error; "an infallible antidote"; "an infallible memory"; "the Catholic Church considers the Pope infallible"; "no doctor ...
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
I see - because she too MUST teach error or ELSE she is the absolute holder of truth for mankind???

Where does this come from??

Is Ellen White absolutely trustworthy? Is Ellen White's judgment exempt from liability to error? Is Ellen White immune from fallacy?

Nope -- she is fallible. ALL her writings are fallible -- they just also happen to be correct.

incapable of failure or error; "an infallible antidote"; "an infallible memory"; "the Catholic Church considers the Pope infallible"; "no doctor ...
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Then with regards to correctness, is Ellen White correct about annihilation of the wicked and a denial of eternal torment?

As it turns out -Yes

- but that is an SDA doctrine that had to stand on it's own WITHOUT Ellen White.

BGTF
Is Ellen White correct with regards to investigative judgment?

As it turns out - Yes. But that is an SDA doctrine regarding Dan7, Dan 8, 2Cor 5:10 and Romans 2 that had to stand on its own "sola scriptura" WITHOUT Ellen White.

Is Ellen White correct with regards to assurance of salvation?

Yes.

However as you point out - you have more than one or two illustrative points on why one who believes as you do -- should NOT accept Ellen White as a valid prophet.

(This point just isn't that hard).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Most people postilng here are judging the PROPHET (Ellen White)
not the PROPHECY (those prophecies /teachings/ from her
books). The scripture I quoted shows we should do exactly
the opposite:

Test the prophecies & not the prophetess.
That is the way we do it under the New Covenant
(not under the Old Covenant).

God can speak to us through even errant prophets (teachers).
What ever happened to the Baptist FAIR PLAY ideas that
come from PRIESTHOOD OF THE BELIEVER & SOUL COMPETENCY?

Is it KICK-a-SDA for Khrist week? :tear:

Ed,

I respect you very much. However I must say I am puzzled with your posting on this one thread. You seem to think SDA should be off limits or something. Why, when we go after everything on this board? Now if you were SDA I would understand your post. But for some reason you do not want others to talk about SDA.

You have stood-up to KJVO...and done it boldly. They were fait game. I happen to agree with what you have said about them.


On this very thread you took a shop at Calvinism. That was fair game. I expect that...for you are not a Calvinist.

You have also said you do not agree with all of the SDA doctrine. Yet you do not think others should ask??? Why?

You are free to do as you wish...I'm just puzzled by your actions.


Yet in your eyes we should back off SDA? Why?

 

[BobRyan]

My brother, I spent 4 years in the neo-prophetic movement with those who were regarded as eminant prophets: Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, Bobby Conner, and others. Some of these were orignal Kansas City prophets. I mention this because I do not come from a predisposition to reject or despise prophesies as you might suppose.

And yet that list shows enough error all on its own.

White has done this with her doctrine of Investigative Judgement and other doctrines.

Sadly for your portrayal - she is not the one that came up with that doctrine. It would be better to simply hold SDAs accountable to a "sola scriptura" defense of it rather than pretending that the proof for that teaching is Ellen White.

The SDA movement even has gone as far as Jehovah Witnesses and published an altered Bible that changes and adds to the Word of God to better line up with White's teaching.

Totally false.

The SDA denomination has not authored or translated any Bibles.

Like the Living Bible - an INDIVIDUAL published HIS own Bible paraphrase -- But this is not a denominational work AND it is not deemed to be a valid translation by the SDA church.

Just stating the obviousl

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally Posted by BobRyan



Nope -- she is fallible. ALL her writings are fallible -- they just also happen to be correct.



in Christ,

Bob

Ok..you say they are correct. I'm sure the originals have some value to the SDA faithful, but do SDA feel each word is inspired by God as you do the Bible and would be blaspheming to change or misquote them?

I know sola scriptura rules, but do you feel the very words even the word "and" ...and the word " if" placed in one line of a one book is inspired by God in the originals of White, just as you feel the words each and every word of the originals of the Bible were inspired. Again i'm not ask about the message of white meeting the sola scriptura standard. I'm asking how you..or other SDA view the word printed on the page of the book. Is it inspired as is the originals of the Bible?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I am afraid my question lacked clarity.

By mistakes, I meant mistakes in her prophecies.

IOW, if one was a true prophet; would they ever make a wrong prophecy.

Did all of her prophecies come true? If not, then would she not be classified as a false prophet?

 

[BobRyan]

I was reading this scripture for a discussion on another
venue. But it fits in real good here:

1 Thessalonians :20-22 (TNIV = Today's New International Version):
Do not treat prophecies with contempt
but test them all; hold on to what is good,
reject whatever is harmful.

I note some readings that are just NOT there:

1 Thessalonians :20-22 (TNIV +variant1):
Treat prophets with contempt
test them all; jail those good,
hang those harmful.

Well said Ed!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I Am Blessed 17: Did all of her prophecies come true? If not, then would she not be classified as a false prophet?

HP: Suppose a minister of the gospel preached and or prophesied according to the Word of God for some years, and then obviously said some things not in accordance to God’s Word. Would that make him classified as a false minister or prophet, or simply a minister or prophet that has left the truth for whatever reasons, and as such is currently a false prophet? Are you suggesting OAFPAAFP? (Once a false prophet always a false prophet)

Say for instance we misread what we now believe is God’s voice to us or misinterpret ideas in Scripture and later find out that we were wrong. Do we automatically wear the label of OAFPAAFP across our forehead for life, regarded as false in every thing subsequent to our mistakes of the past? Just how far do you see this 'false prophet' idea going?

 

[BobRyan]

I am afraid my question lacked clarity.

By mistakes, I meant mistakes in her prophecies.

IOW, if one was a true prophet; would they ever make a wrong prophecy.

For example "I prophesy that the sun will come up tomorrow" but then it turns out to be cloudy??:wavey:

Or sometimes they are speaking about an actual vision that they had -- and sometimes just telling stories??

Did all of her prophecies come true? If not, then would she not be classified as a false prophet?

Were her prophecies doctrinally correct in your view?

If not - what difference does it make if she was 100% accurate in future predictions?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Suppose a minister of the gospel preached and or prophesied according to the Word of God for some years, and then obviously said some things not in accordance to God’s Word. Would that make him classified as a false minister or prophet, or simply a minister or prophet that has left the truth for whatever reasons, and as such is currently a false prophet?

Well in keeping with your point - Baalam went astray -- from good prophet to bad as it were.

However in this case Ellen White claimed that God gave messages in favor of a number of existing and very distinctive SDA doctrines. It would be very hard to argue that those messages were ever doctrinally correct even from the start if your Biblical view was different from an SDA.

Say for instance we misread what we now believe is God’s voice to us or misinterpret ideas in Scripture and later find out that we were wrong. Do we automatically wear the label of OAFPAAFP across our forehead for life

The problem is -- as much as you may have good intent when you give those doctrinal views -- if you claim that God spoke in favor of them supernaturally in a dream or vision -- and if those views differ with scripture - then how could you be viewed as a TRUE prophet?

On the other hand ALL the Priests and Pharisees would have quickly claimed that Christ's messages were in violation of their own understanding of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
Did all of her prophecies come true? If not, then
would she not be classified as a false prophet?

Some of her prophecies are NOT verifiable.

I don't know what went on in Heaven in 1844.

But this is a Bible prophecy:

Rev 11:19 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the Temple of God was opened in heauen,
and there was seene in his Temple
the Arke of his Testament, and there were lightnings,
and voyces, and thundrings, and an earthquake,
and great haile.

The bolded part is to happen in heaven
(the rest might be on earth?).
No way to check it happened in 1844
IN HEAVEN.

Personally I hope to be in heaven when it does
happen. But there is no way to know now.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok..you say they are correct. I'm sure the originals have some value to the SDA faithful, but do SDA feel each word is inspired by God as you do the Bible and would be blaspheming to change or misquote them?

Well there is a lot of paraphrasing among those of us in the pews - but that is also true of scripture.

I know sola scriptura rules, but do you feel the very words even the word "and" ...and the word " if" placed in one line of a one book is inspired by God in the originals of White,

No - but I don't know if that get's me off the hook since I also don't think that God wrote the English version of the Bible.

Is it inspired as is the originals of the Bible?

As stated before - in 1Cor 12 there is only ONE kind of gift of prophecy - not two or three or four.

Either one has it or they don't. What God chooses to do with it determines if it is scripture or not -- and we have had no more "scripture" since the NT was closed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Some of her prophecies are NOT verifiable.

This is true since time has not gone to the point that she described in detail at the 2nd coming -- but enough time has gone by for her predictions about the cooperation between RC and Protestant groups to be seen, the rise of the U.S as the single world dominate nation, the debate over restrictions of civil liberties and the debate over separation of church and state. She saw that and she saw the outcome of it as well.

But we can not claim that history "is now over" so it would be hard to judge the final outcome against her prediction of that final state - until it actually arrives.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

For example "I prophesy that the sun will come up tomorrow" but then it turns out to be cloudy??:wavey:

Or sometimes they are speaking about an actual vision that they had -- and sometimes just telling stories??

Were her prophecies doctrinally correct in your view?

If not - what difference does it make if she was 100% accurate in future predictions?

in Christ,

Bob

You redefine the word "prophecy" and in fact make a mockery of the Bible and Bible prophecy in doing so.
I find this discussion very demeaning in relation to the Word of God.

Here are prophecies:
Micah 5:2--450 years before the birth of Christ, Micah prophesied that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. He even defined which Bethlehem (for there were two of them) where he would be born--450 B.C.

Isaiah 7:14--700 years before the birth of Christ, Isaiah prophesied that Christ would be born of a virgin.

Those are just two out of hundreds that were accurately predicted and accurately fulfilled. They cannot be disputed. They have nothing to do with the frivilous rising of the sun, the so-called forecasting of the weather, the mistakes one makes in every day life. These were genuine prophecies by genuine prophets. The power of God was upon their lives, and they were commanded of God to prophesy.
If any such man would make a prophecy and his prophecy would fail just one time, he was declared a false prophet and taken out and stoned. EGW does not measure up to that standard. I believe you know this well, but are somehow trying to coverup for her.

 

[Joe]

This was taken from the Official SDA website

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main_stat24.html

A Statement of Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy

Ellen G White's chief burden was to direct attention to the Holy Scriptures. She wrote: "Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light" (Review and Herald, January 20, 1903). She believed that although her writings are a "lesser light," they are light, and that the source of this light is God.

As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine. Therefore, we recommend:

1) That as a church we seek the power of the Holy Spirit to apply to our lives more fully the inspired counsel contained in the writings of Ellen G White, and

2) That we make increased efforts to publish and circulate these writings throughout the world

 

[BobRyan]

You redefine the word "prophecy" and in fact make a mockery of the Bible and Bible prophecy in doing so.
I find this discussion very demeaning in relation to the Word of God.

Good pulpit pounding DHK.

Facts please.

Here are prophecies:
Micah 5:2--450 years before the birth of Christ, Micah prophesied that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. He even defined which Bethlehem (for there were two of them) where he would be born--450 B.C.

Isaiah 7:14--700 years before the birth of Christ, Isaiah prophesied that Christ would be born of a virgin.

Those are just two out of hundreds that were accurately predicted and accurately fulfilled. They cannot be disputed.

Finally - facts -- and so we agree on something

DHK
They have nothing to do with the frivilous rising of the sun, the so-called forecasting of the weather, the mistakes one makes in every day life.

I was making an illustration for the sake of clarification asking the one who Posted if she was talking about a "prophecy-after-prophecy" sequence where one is correct and the next is not correct.

Lighten up a bit and you will be able to see these points and address what is actually posted.:wavey:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This was taken from the Official SDA website

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main_stat24.html

A Statement of Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy

Ellen G White's chief burden was to direct attention to the Holy Scriptures. She wrote: "Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light" (Review and Herald, January 20, 1903). She believed that although her writings are a "lesser light," they are light, and that the source of this light is God.

The quote shows that SDAs think there is only ONE GIFT of prophecy listed in 1Cor 12 -- and that it always works the same way.

As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine. Therefore, we recommend:

Those who see 2 or 3 different gifts of prophecy listed in 1Cor 12 need to show where they get it.

So as already stated - the only reason Ellen White's writings have value is the source. If it is God then it stands as having authority and His accuracy. If testing them against scripture shows that the source is not of God - then it has little or no value.


But if testing shows them to be doctrinally in harmony with scripture - then the reader is under obligation to the authority that represents. The quotes above show SDAs viewing themselves as being obligated to listen to inspired messages that are tested against the Bible and found to have God as the source.

in Christ,

Bob