Seventh-Day Adventism

[BobRyan]

Do you reject your own churches statements here?

God Bless! :thumbs:

That voted "statement" (as opposed to voted doctrine) does not say "we got a doctrine from Ellen White" NOR does it say "we PROVE a doctrine using Ellen White".

Though you may think that we SHOULD go that direction - so far the "Bible ALONE" statement ALSO included there remains the position for the Church.

Attend the meetings - vote maybe you can persuade the group!:wavey:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Brother Ed your difinition of the "gift of prophecy" does not agree with BobRyan's definition yet you seem to defend Bob's views on this subject in many ways.


If you two do not agree on what the "gift of prophecy" is how can you agree at all on who has this gift?

God Bless! :thumbs:

As far as I know Ed has never claimed to be SDA nor to accept Ellen White as a prophet - I believe he has stated that he views SDAs as being Christian and that he accepts Ellen White as a Christian but does not agree with some of her doctrinal views (probably does not agree with her eschatology either).

I think that is pretty close to what he has posted so far.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

That voted "statement" (as opposed to voted doctrine) does not say "we got a doctrine from Ellen White" NOR does it say "we PROVE a doctrine using Ellen White".

Agreed. It says her writings are equal to God's Word.

The statement is the same found in 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine.

Divine authority = inspiration of God

profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness = godly living and for doctrine

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

So if i say ......... "Jesus is the divine Son of the Living God" ..........I just prophesied since what I said was in harmony with scripture?

As I asked before and I am not sure I was given a clear answer, If all she said was in harmony with already stated doctrines of scripture then what does the SDA church need her writings for anything more than any other commentary we can read?

God Bless! :thumbs:

Already answered - post 179

Bob said

Her contribution was not in giving new doctrine nor even in defining SDA doctrine. Rather it was in revealing details about the future, details about the past, and primarily in correcting individuals - guiding the church in starting education ministries, health ministries, schools of evangelism and squashing fanatacism as the early group got started. (For example there was a "holy flesh" movement that tried to get started among early SDAs)

Very often her writings to individuals were private letters "Bro S I saw in the night vision that you were ...." in many case these were things known only to the person she was correcting. Sometimes to a husband who was too harsh and critical to his wife, sometimes to a wife who was too harsh with her children, or prone to depression or whose cooking was ruining the health of her family.

Here we go "again".:thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed. It says her writings are equal to God's Word.

The statement is the same found in 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine.

Divine authority = inspiration of God

profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness = godly living and for doctrine

God Bless! :thumbs:

Note -- there is NO statement of the form "her writings are equal to God's Word" used in any official statements of the SDA church. What we DO find is that there is only ONE kind of 1Cor 12 "gift of prophecy" -- not 2 or 3 or 10 as you may be supposing.

Already answered -- post 200.

But here we go "again":wavey:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
This was taken from the Official SDA website

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/sta...in_stat24.html

A Statement of Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy

Ellen G White's chief burden was to direct attention to the Holy Scriptures. She wrote: "Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light" (Review and Herald, January 20, 1903). She believed that although her writings are a "lesser light," they are light, and that the source of this light is God.

The quote shows that SDAs think there is only ONE GIFT of prophecy listed in 1Cor 12 -- and that it always works the same way.

Quote:
As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine. Therefore, we recommend:

Those who see 2 or 3 different gifts of prophecy listed in 1Cor 12 need to show where they get it.

So as already stated - the only reason Ellen White's writings have value is the source. If it is God then it stands as having authority and His accuracy. If testing them against scripture shows that the source is not of God - then it has little or no value.


But if testing shows them to be doctrinally in harmony with scripture - then the reader is under obligation to the authority that represents. The quotes above show SDAs viewing themselves as being obligated to listen to inspired messages that are tested against the Bible and found to have God as the source.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver - a hint --

I believe scripture alone is the standard by which all faith and doctrine must be judged.

I ALSO believe that the term "infallible" means "incapable" of error as defined by accepted dictionaries.

God ALONE is infallible.

incapable of failure or error; "an infallible antidote"; "an infallible memory"; "the Catholic Church considers the Pope infallible"; "no doctor ...
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

At the same website link Joe provided for us -- we find Doctrinal statement 1.

1. Holy Scriptures:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

Belief #18 of the 28 statements of belief

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That is somewhat misleading.

It is more correct to say "there is only ONE gift of prophecy listed in 1Cor 12 -- either you have it or you don't".

The "multilevels of quality" and/or prophecy myth is simply for those not reading the scriptures and paying attention to the topic at hand.



Correction again.

IF the prophecy comes to pass (as in the case of the unfolding of American history, the fellowship being established between Catholic and non-Catholic Christian groups, the association between smoking and cancer, outcome of the Civil War ...) then you STILL have to reject her because that does NOT negate the test based on doctrinal alignment with your Baptist, or Catholic, or Presbyterian, or Methodist view of scripture.

So here again - you are not describing the whole picture!

in Christ,

Bob

Have I defined what the SDAs have styled their leader by? Not at all. But it was the SDAs that put Whtie in par with OT prophets. Perhaps you have missed that information in your involved wtih this group.

It's pretty simple Bob. If the so-called prophet-ess is wrong, then she spoke presumptously. No need to heed or be afraid of that prophet-ess.

Of course, since the SDA says she was like an OT prophet, I can reject it out-of-hand. There are no more such prophets after Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: What did Jonah tell that was untrue?

HP: As I recall he foretold that Nineveh would be destroyed, and it was not in the end. My point was simply to ask, was he a false prophet because something he prophesied would happen did not come to pass? If you say it was conditional, show us from the text that it was. Remember, Sola Biblica!

Joe: Are you attempting to compare Jonas to EW?

HP: No way. I am just trying to keep the blood from clotting in your cranial region. :laugh:

By the way, what about that lying prophet? Was he sent from God? Was he a true prophet or should have he been stoned as well?

 

[skypair]

Let's read Dan 7 and SEE if it is really true that no one here can tell that this is an event taking place IN heaven AFTER the rise of the Roman Empire and BEFORE the 2nd coming.

Even I figured out where these things happen -- but there is no tie to 1844 at all! No tie to 2300 days at all! And that they happen in heaven, while true, it is still unproven that they have happened yet. Plus, the 4th kingdom is being postponed. It is NOT finished.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

Even I figured out where these things happen -- but there is no tie to 1844 at all! No tie to 2300 days at all! And that they happen in heaven, while true, it is still unproven that they have happened yet. Plus, the 4th kingdom is being postponed. It is NOT finished.

skypair

EVEN the NIV study notes admit that the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 is pagan Rome that follows the Greek Empire.

This is just too simple.

The only challenge is that instead of slicing and dicing the 4th empire -- all you need is to KEEP the Roman empire and observe that it goes from PAGAN Rome to PAPAL Rome which creates the DARK Ages - and Century after Century of "persecution of the saints".

Now for some that is just not acceptable - but a lot of people looking at world history "will get it".

Have no fear. It is all right there in the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP: As I recall he foretold that Nineveh would be destroyed, and it was not in the end. My point was simply to ask, was he a false prophet because something he prophesied would happen did not come to pass? If you say it was conditional, show us from the text that it was. Remember, Sola Biblica!

Jonah 3
1Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying,
2"Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and proclaim to it the proclamation which I am going to tell you."
3So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three days' walk.
4Then Jonah began to go through the city one day's walk; and he cried out and said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."


Jonah 4
1But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry.
2He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.[/b]
3"Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."


This is a good point. It illustrates the message given to Jeremiah (Jer 18) that prophecy is conditional when it comes to blessings or curses.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course, since the SDA says she was like an OT prophet, I can reject it out-of-hand. There are no more such prophets after Christ.

Though you seem to be bouncing around on this one -- the point we seem to agree on is that non-SDAs who think the bible endorses purgatory, prayers to the dead, OSAS or Calvinism, ignoring the 4th commandment etc etc could not -- in fact should not accept Ellen White as a prophet because she spoke to all of those issues in the form of messages claimed to have come from God and opposed them.

You have not seen me arguing for the ACCEPTANCE of Ellen White as an inspired prophet by ANY non-SDA. Rather I have been arguing for the exact opposite.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

So if i say ......... "Jesus is the divine Son of the Living God" ..........I just prophesied since what I said was in harmony with scripture?

...

That is an example of prophecy.
I can see it is correct cause it
closely matches scripture.

Here is another example of prophecy. But
it isn't directly in the Bible:

If one continues smoking cigarettes, he will be
punished by God by dying younger than he aught.

(that was an example of a teaching that is probably
correct)

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Though you seem to be bouncing around on this one -- the point we seem to agree on is that non-SDAs who think the bible endorses purgatory, prayers to the dead, OSAS or Calvinism, ignoring the 4th commandment etc etc could not -- in fact should not accept Ellen White as a prophet because she spoke to all of those issues in the form of messages claimed to have come from God and opposed them.

You have not seen me arguing for the ACCEPTANCE of Ellen White as an inspired prophet by ANY non-SDA. Rather I have been arguing for the exact opposite.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't think I am bouncing around, perhaps staggered. The SDA movement is a new one to me. Actually, I would be glad to find that my intial impression on the movement are entirely wrong, and that I just have a disagreement with them on some key doctrine.

Is the SDA just another orthodox Christian demoniation? Right now, that is not the impression I get. I truly hope I am wrong. As I seek to understand SDAs I will seek to accurately represent what they beleive. Regarding what kind of prophet-ess White should be regarded as I have found conflicting statements. Some that have come from this board, and others that have come from official publications of the SDAs.

Whom am I to believe? But that aside, this I would like to learn from you:

1. Do you think people are true Christians who worship on Sunday?
2. Can an unbaptized person enter into heaven?
3. Can a person who has genuinely been born again, sought to obey God in all things from a pure conscience, finally lose their salvation?

 

[Ed Edwards]

You believe God gives different groups
of Christians different meanings of scripture?

God Bless! :thumbs:

God bless you Brother Steaver.

Consider the seperation of the many denominations.
Of God? Of evil? just human stuff? I think
denominations are just human.

Here is an illustration I use when I talk to
agnostics or athiests:

There is a corner near where I live where two
five-lane roads meet (one lane is a turn lane).
within walking distance of that corner is
2 Chicken eateries, 3 Chineese/Oriental eateries,
3 Pizza places, 2 Mexican/Texican resturants,
a seafood place, 2 snack places (one frozen, one
just cold), 2 sandwich shops, a seafood place
-- you get the idea.

It would be a shame, if you had a $20 bill to
go hungry there -- especially if you cannot make
up your mind.

I believe that God gives different denominations
different ministries. The Holy Spirit enables His ministries
different.

If God tells some denominations "You are the
only RIGHT denomination" -- doesn't that divide
more than tell each they have a unique and special
call to ministry/missions?
Your church (or denomination) complements
my church (or denomination: SBC) in service
to our Lord. Amen?

 

[Joe]

This is a good point. It illustrates the message given to Jeremiah (Jer 18) that prophecy is conditional when it comes to blessings or curses. ]

Thank you for answering this question for me. What he said :thumbs:

 

[Joe]

If it's ok, I'll also attempt to answer these questions.

Is the SDA just another orthodox Christian denomination?

I believe one can be saved while being SDA AND believing in Ellen White, amongst their other beliefs and doctrines. I believe in much of their doctrine.

Right now, that is not the impression I get. I truly hope I am wrong. As I seek
to understand SDA's I will seek to accurately represent what they beleive.

Good luck. You have seen their statements which cotradict one another already.

Regarding what kind of prophet-ess White should be regarded as I have found conflicting statements.

Most SDA's consider her a Messenger of God. Clearly some, consider her a Prophet. The Official words of SDA's (I read this yesterday on the official website) that she considers herself MORE than just a prophet. There wasn't further explanation given for this, but SDA's endorsed it.

Some that have come from this board, and others that have come from official publications of the SDA's.

Whom am I to believe?

Well I think Bob has done a good job of explaining the SDA position on matters, or when he is finally straightforward about it. I still don't understand with all of the warnings in the Bible about False Prophets why anyone would believe in ANY prophet they have only read about.

But that aside, this I would like to learn from you:

1. Do you think people are true Christians who worship on Sunday?
2. Can an unbaptized person enter into heaven?
3. Can a person who has genuinely been born again, sought to obey God in all things from a pure conscience, finally lose their salvation?

1. Yes, but SDA's are unique due to their will and ability to keep the 10 commandments, especially the 4th commandment. This is key, keeping the 4th commandment in the 6 days prior to judgment. I am unsure what it does, elevates your status in heaven is my guess, but only a guess.
This is another reason why the 4th commandment is so emphasized over the other 9 commandments, though all commandments are to be obeyed.

2. Well like they say Salvation is by grace alone, the fruitage of salvation is obeying the 10 commandments. So, ultimately you must obey the 10 commandments in order to be saved.
This is another example of double talk. Baptism is a prerequisite for salvation yet they ask why wouldn't anyone not want to be baptized? So leaving the door open for other possibilities.

3. SDA's believe one can loose salvation.

 

[Joe]

I apologize for that post RB, it was still a rough draft yet got saved somehow. When I noticed, it's was too late to edit.

I need to explain something clearer. Within six days of judgment, SDA's believe that it expected we obey the tn commandments even more, but I won't elaborate.Since most churches honor the sabbath on Sunday, not Saturday, that would be breaking the 4th commandment. This is what I mean by emphasis on the 4th commandment. Other groups also will be included with SDA's of course if they obey all commandments. The reason I include the Official SDA website is to offer proof. Since I was SDA, and have a hardcopy of this info, it's easier to navigate their website.

 

[Joe]

oops oops