Seventh Day Adventist and SOUL SLEEP?

[Inquiring Mind]

Okay Bob, it's time for you to defend your pagan beliefs.

"Soul Sleep"?:

SDAs deny that believers on death go to heaven. They say that believers go to soul sleep in the grave until Christ's return. This is a belief that they share with the Jehovahs Witnesses.

Since (in thier view) the soul cannot exist apart from the body, man must rest in the tomb until the resurrection.

In addition, Adventist believe in annihilation of the wicked and deny the existence of hell. However, the reality of hell is shown from many verses of Scripture, among them:

Balls in you court Bob.

 

[FundamentalOnly!]

When we talk about New Age Movements, we tend to think about Spiritualism and new age movements that have occured in the past few decades.


Yet we fail to realize that in a sense Mormons, Christian scientists , and SDA are part of a new age movement. They call themselves Christians, but after close examination it is clear that they are not.

 

[BobRyan]

Okay Bob, it's time for you to defend your pagan beliefs.

Oh come on!!

Let's not do that - I just hate my own beliefs!!

oh - well -- if we "Must".

"Soul Sleep"?:

SDAs deny that believers on death go to heaven. They say that believers go to soul sleep in the grave until Christ's return.

Well in all fairness- I want to give you a sporting shot at bashing SDA doctrine - so to do that you have to line up your aim at the right thing.

Here is what SDAs believe --

Eccl 12
6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

#1. The spirit of EACH person GOES TO GOD at death!
#2. The spirit that goes to God is that part that makes us an "individual" - a PERSON.

So in fact the PERSON is what is going to God - in the form of spirit -

#3. EACH Person is then in the Dormant state that the Bible calls "Sleep"

John 11 "LAZARUS IS asleep I go that I may WAKE HIM"

In addition, Adventist believe in annihilation of the wicked and deny the existence of hell. .

Matt 10

GOD is the one who DESTROYS BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell.
MAN CAN and DOES in this life DESTROY the body but not the soul!

"DESTROY" defined - as in SEE bodies in this life get "DESTROYED"

Pretty hard to miss.

So in that respect you are right - bodies get annihilated in this life JUST as BOTH body AND soul will be "destroyed" in the next to that same extent!


But as for Hell - Rev 14:10 makes it clear that IT DOES exist in the form of the LAKE of Fire -- FIRE and Brimstone -- "The Second Death".

And it DOES burn REAL people in REAL fire causing REAL torment.

Don't know how we missed you on that one.

BTW - thanks for opening this up for me.

But Rev 14:10 is EQUALLY clear that ALL this "Takes place IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His holy ones" - as Johnathan Edwards admits aLL the saints are there -- right there to witness the entire ordeal!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And may I just say - what a lovely little group we seem to have here.

Good to have a chance to speak with both of you.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.sda2rc.com

 

[BobRyan]

Been there - done that. Brandon is also at SDAIssues so we are having a good chat there as well.

How in the world is that helping you actually "make a case" here?

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Been there - done that. Brandon is also at SDAIssues so we are having a good chat there as well. How in the world is that helping you actually "make a case" here?

it does not, I just thought it was interesting.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You have not defended the SDA belief in Soul Sleep. Your core belief is that the soul and body are inseparable.

Soul-sleep is the denial of man's conscious existence between when he dies and the resurrection day. It's what is called the intermediate state of the believer, in which their view( SDA and Christadelphians) is both the body and the soul lay rest in the ground.

Seventh Day Adventists hold to what is called conditional immortality. What the SDA do, who deny an immortal existence either with the Lord or in punishment in the hereafter, end up camping on the Old Testament Scriptures to prove their points.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

"Soul Sleep" propounded by Ellen G. White and condemned as heresy as early as the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D.

Come on Baptists, you don't believe in Soul Sleep either, so why are you holding back?

 

[Inquiring Mind]

The concept of annilhation makes Jesus redemptive work on the cross meaningless. If I am saved and have to live a strict biblical adherent life so I can spend eternity in the presence of God, then what incentive does a sinner have if he can sin and enjoy the carnal pleasures life has to offer when there is no threat of eternal torment when there is only the enevitable second death where the soul ceases to exist? Thus it is saying there is no eternal consequence of sin.

 

[LeBuick]

"Soul Sleep" propounded by Ellen G. White and condemned as heresy as early as the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D.

Come on Baptists, you don't believe in Soul Sleep either, so why are you holding back?

Maybe you should try this site... http://www.truthorfables.com/SUBJECTS.htm

 

[Jim1999]

There are some subjects not worth debating. One already knows the conclusions.

In my mind, if soul sleep and annihilation are true, and that is the true end of the unsaved man, what is the point in "getting" saved? I am speaking from the viewpoint of the unsaved.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Inquiring Mind]

In my mind, if soul sleep and annihilation are true, and that is the true end of the unsaved man, what is the point in "getting" saved? I am speaking from the viewpoint of the unsaved.

Exactly! There is no point in getting saved from the viewpoint of the unsaved. If there is no everlasting punishment then the unsaved mind has no incentive on getting saved. The attitude of the unsaved and the unbelieving is, why should I serve God now and expect an eternity of serving the same God is Jealous when I could just as easily serve myself. It almost takes on the Atheist aspect. No eternal damnation!

 

[BobRyan]

There are some subjects not worth debating. One already knows the conclusions.

In my mind, if soul sleep and annihilation are true, and that is the true end of the unsaved man, what is the point in "getting" saved? I am speaking from the viewpoint of the unsaved.

Cheers,

Jim

In Rev 14:10 we are told that the literal fire and literal brimstone literal suffering of the wicked literally takes place "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy ones" (As Johnathan Edwards also admits) -- is it YOUR claim that IF you are not watching your loved ones writhing in torment for ALL eternity - instead of just watching them for a finite period of time -- that you might as well not have the 2nd death at all?

You seem somewhat dissappointed by the prospect of limiting the suffering of your lost loved ones.

How can that be possible?

You are insisting that God torment them "forever" or else the 2nd death just "is not bad enough" in your view?

Can you say "cruel and unusual idea of punishment"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Exactly! There is no point in getting saved from the viewpoint of the unsaved. If there is no everlasting punishment then the unsaved mind has no incentive on getting saved. The attitude of the unsaved and the unbelieving is, why should I serve God now and expect an eternity of serving the same God is Jealous when I could just as easily serve myself. It almost takes on the Atheist aspect. No eternal damnation!

Such are the wild imaginings of those who have not burned in the fires of hell for even one hour of writhing torment and agony.

In today's society - capital punishment stakes mere seconds - maybe a whole minute or two if we are not efficient. You are whining that hours or DAYS of writhing in torment "is not considered a deterrent" by the wicked - when in fact TODAY it is IS a deterrent to have SECONDS or a bare few MINUTES of torment and then death!!!

How odd that you live in such a world that embraces the writhing and torment for sooooo long and consideres it to be nothing. One might think you were so "used to be burned alive" and seeing others burned alive that now you are callous to it -- yet nothing could be further from the truth. In fact you would easily wilt watching only a few MINUTES of a loved one writhing in the flames burning alive and we all know it.

How sad that this idea of "eternal torment" of our loved ones carries so much weight with such Christians that they are "dissappointed" at anything less!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You have not defended the SDA belief in Soul Sleep. Your core belief is that the soul and body are inseparable.

Is this you "quoting me"????

Is this you "quoting" the doctrinal statement of the SDA church (available online even)??

No.

This is "you quoting you" and saying I AM SUPPOSED to BELIEVE whatever YOU SAY!!

How in the world do you come up with that stuff!!??

next.:sleep:

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"Soul Sleep" propounded by Ellen G. White and condemned as heresy as early as the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D.

Come on Baptists, you don't believe in Soul Sleep either, so why are you holding back?

#1. Ellen White was not alive in 553 A.D.
#2. I have not referred to anything from Ellen White - I just show what the Bible says and then YOU run to Ellen White. How sad.

#3. I applaud your "come on Baptists" idea. There is absolutely a common ground for you. It is only fair that if I join with then in condemning The RCC invention of Purgatory, Praying to the dead, turning bread into od, magic powers of the priest, slaughter of millions of Christians in the dark ages --- that YOU should seek that same common ground basis for coming this way on the subject of "The DEAD in CHRIST" 1Thess 4.

I going to be stuck here - since I can only appeal to the Word of God as my partner in this.


You have to admit - if you accept that the "PERSON" is the one that "Falls asleep"[/b] and the [b]"body parts" are that which decays, rots and "returns to dust" as the NT says - you never run into the =problem" of praying TO the dead.

Furthermore it is clear as to WHY we would not be allowed to communicate with the dead - in that case. It leaves only ONE group of spirits to "answer us".

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

1Thess 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>

John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

1Cor 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
…
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

1 Cor 11

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lazarus

If it is the “Person that is Dead, that is the Friend of Jesus and that is In the Tomb is the one that is Asleep” instead of the Person being “Alive in Christ” at death -- then we would expect to see..

John 11
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair,whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''
…
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''[/b]
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,
15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.
18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off;
19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother.
20 Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house.
21 Martha then said to Jesus, "" Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
22 ""Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.''
23 Jesus said to her, ""Your brother will rise again.''
24 Martha said to Him, "" I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.''
25 Jesus said to her, "" I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?''

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You have not proven that the Soul sleeps.

Those that have fallen asleep are those that have apostated themselves from God.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

#1. Ellen White was not alive in 553 A.D.

Yes she was not alive, but the Heresy of Ellen White did raise it's satanic head and the Council of 553 A.D. refuted that heresey. There have been other instances of this Heresy springing up.

#2. I have not referred to anything from Ellen White - I just show what the Bible says and then YOU run to Ellen White. How sad.

Ellen White is as to the SDA as Mohammed is as to the Islamiist.

SDA core beliefs spring from the Cultish and Pagan New General Revelations of Ellen White.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You keep bringing up the RCC. Why?

This is an issue of Sound Biblical Baptist Doctrine vs UnSound Unbiblical SDA Doctrine.