Severed from Christ Fallen from Grace - is LOST

[steaver]

The Bible only condemns OSAS as we see in Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" and in Gal 5:4 and in John 15.

if Calvinism were true there must be no such thing as "Severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.


- the Bible says there is NO salvation apart from Christ - just when Calvinism's OSAS would wish us to "imagine" that the saved state is "SEVERED from Christ - FALLEN from Grace".

Notice that in Gal 5 - Paul does not offer this as a state of salvation.

The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.


Severed from Christ -- is lost.


in Christ,

Bob

What is so fascinating about your insistence that Galatians 5 is speaking about Christians being found lost is that it is actually speaking directly to those who are against faith alone and are teaching that one must be justified by the law, this is simply fascinating and you guys don't even realize that if this passage is to be interpreted as you say, then it is you guys (the anti-faith alone guys) who Paul is pointing the finger directly at!

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

So who is severed from Christ? Who is fallen away from grace? Why it is anyone who would be justified by the law, which is anyone who declares faith only for justification is false!!

You don't see your folly, do you?

 

[preacher4truth]

Severed from Christ is hyperbole and means NEVER saved.

Go consult EGW. Perhaps she will come 'back' from the dead and give you another 'clue'. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Severed from Christ is hyperbole and means NEVER saved.

Go consult EGW. Perhaps she will come 'back' from the dead and give you another 'clue'. :thumbs:

You are right about this - it is the lost state. But it is a "change" to a lost state according to Gal 5.



If "Severed from Christ" means "you were lost and now you are simply remaining lost" - then it is "no change".

But in Gal 5 - Paul does NOT argue for "no change" - rather Paul says this is huge change and that they were "running well" but now they have a huge problem.

In fact look at "the details"

Gal 5

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.

9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.


Paul is pointing to a "change". From Good to bad.

The new "change" is "seeking to be justified by law".

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


====================

3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible only condemns OSAS as we see in Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" and in Gal 5:4 and in John 15.

if Calvinism were true there must be no such thing as "Severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.


- the Bible says there is NO salvation apart from Christ - just when Calvinism's OSAS would wish us to "imagine" that the saved state is "SEVERED from Christ - FALLEN from Grace".

Notice that in Gal 5 - Paul does not offer this as a state of salvation.

The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)


Severed from Christ -- is lost.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

What is so fascinating about your insistence that Galatians 5 is speaking about Christians being found lost is that it is actually speaking directly to those who are against faith alone and are teaching that one must be justified by the law,

Which should not be a cause for you to ignore "the details" in Gal 5:4 - namely that to become "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from grace" - is to become lost.

Otherwise you are stuck arguing that "Fallen from Grace", "Severed from Christ" and "belief in being justified bhy law" is a form of salvation, a form of the saved state.

Have you gone to that extreme in your efforts to circle the wagons around OSAS?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Which should not be a cause for you to ignore "the details" in Gal 5:4 - namely that to become "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from grace" - is to become lost.

Otherwise you are stuck arguing that "Fallen from Grace", "Severed from Christ" and "belief in being justified bhy law" is a form of salvation, a form of the saved state.

Have you gone to that extreme in your efforts to circle the wagons around OSAS?

in Christ,

Bob

It is you who are stuck brother if you want to reference Gal 5 as a passage pointing to the lost for it is pointing directly at you brother for wanting to be justified by the law and not by faith only.

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

I am actually surprised that you have missed this glaring point! The Word is pointing at you brother is it not? Unless you will tell me now that you do not want to be justified by the law. Well, do you or not? Simple yes or no will suffice, no need to plaster the board with rabbit trails :love2:

 

[BobRyan]

The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)


Severed from Christ -- is lost.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

It is you who are stuck brother if you want to reference Gal 5 as a passage pointing to the lost for it is pointing directly at you brother

That is a hollow accusation that is much more difficult to prove than you may have at first imagined.

Those who try to make that accusation stick - usually start off by claiming that anyone who believes in Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith are "stuck fallen from grace".

Which - does not fly as well as you might have at first imagined on a Baptist Board.:laugh:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)


Severed from Christ -- is lost.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.



That is a hollow accusation that is much more difficult to prove than you may have at first imagined.

Those who try to make that accusation stick - usually start off by claiming that anyone who believes in Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith are "stuck fallen from grace".

Which - does not fly as well as you might have at first imagined on a Baptist Board.:laugh:

in Christ,

Bob

I believe the verse is very specific brother when it defines just who it is Paul is speaking of....."you who would be justified by the law"

So ask yourself, would you yourself want to be justified by the law?

I don't, so it is not speaking to me. How about you?

 

[Yeshua1]

Your much imagined doctrine that the "Saved state" is "Severed from Christ and fallen from Grace" has no Bible support but your own hopeful desire to rescue the OSAS of Calvinism.

There is no Bible support for that at all.

Rather - the Bible says there is NO salvation apart from Christ - just when Calvinism's OSAS would wish us to "imagine" that the saved state is "SEVERED from Christ - FALLEN from Grace".

Notice that in Gal 5 - Paul does not offer this as a state of salvation.

The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.


Severed from Christ -- is lost.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

in Christ,

Bob

Actually, yopu can translate that passage from the greek to read that the father lifts up the christian, that he prunes and cuts off/away from them the Junk that keeps them from following Christ !

Even if you tke the traditional meaning, it does NOT support really saved persons going off into Hell!

 

[BobRyan]

The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)


Severed from Christ -- is lost.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.



That is a hollow accusation that is much more difficult to prove than you may have at first imagined.

Those who try to make that accusation stick - usually start off by claiming that anyone who believes in Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith are "stuck fallen from grace".

I believe the verse is very specific brother when it defines just who it is Paul is speaking of....."you who would be justified by the law"


So ask yourself, would you yourself want to be justified by the law?

No one is "justified by law" not even the Baptist Confession of Faith - that affirms the Ten Commandments given to mankind in Eden with aLL TEN of the Ten commandments still applicable to the saints today and binding on all mankind today and written on the heart today - claims that man is justified by law.

you keep dodging this point in your posted responses - even though you quote it in my post.

How is that happening?

Were we "not supposed to notice"???

Also you do not address the point that in Gal 5 they are lost - which utterly wipes out your claim for OSAS.

Again "were we not supposed to notice"??

(OR are you trying to make the self-conflicted argument that those who are seeking to be justified by law - are still saved in it - as Biblicist was doing??)

You are posting on this thread - why not address the obvious points?


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Actually, yopu can translate that passage from the greek to read that the father lifts up the christian, that he prunes and cuts off/away from them the Junk that keeps them from following Christ !

Even if you tke the traditional meaning, it does NOT support really saved persons going off into Hell!

No matter how you bend-and-wrench the text - the sequence remains.

1. Branches IN CHRIST - the bear less fruit - that do not respond to pruning -

2. SEVERED from Christ.

The result -

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)

3. DIE

4. Are then BURNED in fire - which is not a growth stage for those branches - no not even remotely.

It just does not get any easier than this.

But with extreme eisegetical wrenching of the text - you may try and imagine a fiction where OSAS might possibly survive the text.

I think most just prefer to ignore the text if they want to cling to OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Note the contrast between verse 2 and verse 3. In verse 2 he speaks of FRUIT production using a metaphor. In verse 3 he addresses their state of salvation. He does not confuse them like you are attempting to do.

Nor is he speaking about Christ abiding in them but rather their responsibility to "abide in me." This is about experientially walking in Christ or living under the power of the Holy Spirit.

The literal NEGATIVE consequences of not walking in Christ is "without me ye can do nothing" - the metaphorical counterpart to this literal statement is "burned with fire."

The metaphorical POSTIVE consequences is being pruned to produce more fruit while the literal POSITIVE consequence, is answered prayers, fuller joy, closer fellowship, etc.

 

[Yeshua1]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.



No matter how you bend-and-wrench the text - the sequence remains.

1. Branches IN CHRIST - the bear less fruit - that do not respond to pruning -

2. SEVERED from Christ.

The result -

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)

3. DIE

4. Are then BURNED in fire - which is not a growth stage for those branches - no not even remotely.

It just does not get any easier than this.

But with extreme eisegetical wrenching of the text - you may try and imagine a fiction where OSAS might possibly survive the text.

I think most just prefer to ignore the text if they want to cling to OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

in Christ,

Bob

paul telling that IF one seeks to get justiied before god by works, that is failure and no good, but if one accepts the gree gift of God of jesus as sin bearer, THAT is all sufficient!

Contex of tall of this is that the galatians started out good, saved by grace, walking in the HS, but false teachers came in and triesd to get them to see that one MUST keep all the law to be right with God, Judaizers, and paul is exhorting them to stand firm in the faith and grace that saved them!

NOT addressing losing salvation, but of falling underfalse teaching, such as uoui must keep all commanments in order to have been really, must keeo sabbath, festivals , rules etc!