Should Christians rally behind the 2ND AMENDMENT?

[Rooster]

Thanx Granny

I am useualy the first to admit that I can get out of hand sometimes, and have the temperment of Moses , but I mean no harm, just want to stand up for what I think is right. My Pastor says that it is a reflection of my gift of prophecy.

 

[Ed Edwards]

According to Time Almanic 2003, the death
stats in the USofA in 1998 were as follows;

Referecnce: Deaths by firearms were 28,874
The leading death causes were
(from largest to smallest):
[the number in parens after the # of deaths
is the first number divided by 28,874.
This then is the number of people that died
for each firearm death.

1. heart - 709,894 (25)
2. cancer - 551,833 (19)
3. stroke 166,026 (6)
4. lower resp - 123,000 (4)
5. accidents 93,592 (3)

For every firearm death there are
25+19+6+4+2 = 56 deaths by leading cause.

While the deaths for fire arms is
29,000 -- we think little of killing
45,000 a year to drive about willy-nilly

 

[Marcia]

But Marcia, do you remember the incident last year when intruders barged inside a Baptist church and just shot members at random? Wouldn't you feel safer with church members armed to the bone, knowing that they would be quick to respond if a psycho barges in?

No, I would not feel safer if I were in a church with people carrying guns. The chances of this kind of attack are extremely slim, whereas the chances of someone in the church with a gun losing it and deciding to shoot people in the church is higher. Think of all those people going back to the places they worked or were working at the time who killed people. People tend to kill people they know. I used to read and summarize murder trial transcripts for the state of Georgia's attorney general's office for over 3 yrs. and most of the cases were people killed by people who knew them.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Rooster:

And I do have a strong love for women, but, I do not tollerate tyrant woman, disrespecting the Word of God. The Bible verse I quote is applicable the whole world over , no exceptions. Show me were I called you a name, I might have labeled you a femmenist, but did not resort to name calling. And Marci your right , we got off on the wrong foot I appoligize for getting so heated up, gun control, along with all our constitutional rights is a very passionate subject for me, I will forgive your lipping off , can you forgive me

I was not "lipping off" nor was I disrespecting the word of God so I must deny that. Nevertheless, I forgive you. I hope we can get start over in a way more becoming to those united in Christ.

Peace in Christ

,
Marcia

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Rooster:
C4K, If you will not accept the Word of God as enough proof, then there is no point in trying to explane it to you, perhaps, you dont have the holy spirit to help you decern it for you, I would love to tell you about Gods plan of salvation . Because anybody who can read, the Bible claerly states our God given right commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ himself in Luke 22:36 our need to arm ourselves, also it is safe to say that everything we have is given to us by God including our freedoms, he may use man as a means to fulfill His will , but he decides what to giveth, or taketh away. Did not David defeat Goliath with a wepon in his hand? of course God guided that stone, but none the less God used David and his sling shot to defeat Goliath. I can't belive you would dismiss the Word of God, and our God given rights to bear arms.

It is totally against board policy to question a member's salvation. To question my salvation over an issue like this is absurd. To accuse me of dismissing God's Word for diagreeing with you is absurd. Your posts really merit no further response except this clarification of board policy.

That said, I do accept your apology.

 

[mioque]

Rooster
"Sheesh, I am not looking for an argument here , why do you feel the need to pursicute me?"
''
Let's see, you questioned the faith of a man whose opinions I respect, over what is to me an unimportant issue and your remarks towards Marcia and the implications of those remarks towards the womenfolk on this board in general I liked even less.
Still since both Marcia and C4K have forgiven you I will happily do likewise.

" and make me a martyr?"
''
Rooster you are the gunowner here, not me. You martyring this old spinster who hasn't been in a dangerous situation for over 15 years is much more likely than me doing the reverse.

 

[PastorGreg]

Yes, C4K, our country was founded on the belief that basic human rights, including the right to defend oneself, come from God. In the context of our founding fathers and in ours, that meant/means the right to own a gun if one so chooses.

JohnV stated that the 2nd amendment gives the federal government the right to regulate arms. I can't believe that has gone uncorrected - it does no such thing. The "well-regulated militia" was not referring to govt. control. The phrase, "Ther right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" was.

 

[Marcia]

So we have a country with lots of guns and apparently most people posting here think we should be armed to the teeth. What good has this done us in light of the fact that the US is one of the most armed countries in the Western world, has the most individuals carrying guns, and yet our crime rate and murder rate is so incredibly high that it is at least 20 times or more the murder rate of any other Western country that I know of.

I am safer wandering most European cities (there is crime there but nowhere near what we have here and especially with murders) with no gun than walking here in my own country with a gun. How ironic.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I have to say - here in Ireland I cannot own a gun, but feel no less safe than in Alabama with a gun, the police are not breaking my door down to get my Bible, I can homeschool without interference, I haev church in my home and no one is trying to take that right away, etc.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Charlton Heston wasn't Moses and frankly, I don't care what Heston thought or said.

I think the right to bear arms was for a militia. Being a Christian and making the right to own guns a big deal is not a good witness for Christ, imo.

I am sure all the hunters and gun-toting people on the list will hate my post.

You're right I don't like your post. I believe I have a right to defend myself and my family. Guns are not wrong. When you have someone threatening your life or someone you care alot about and tell me what you would do. I'm sorry but I support the U.S. Constitution.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

What is the story with American Fundemental Baptists (I am one) and their obsession with guns? I have seen rifles given away as gifts at preacher's fellowships. Can someone explain the fascination?

As this fits this thread I don't think we need to start a new one. If moderators disagree I will gladly start a new thread.

 

[Comrade]

I don't know. I like them. Like I said I have a right to defend what is mine. I believe that should be a freedom. I remember a quote that said something like "Now that our guns have all been registered it will be a much safer place" Hitler said that.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by Marcia:
So we have a country with lots of guns and apparently most people posting here think we should be armed to the teeth. What good has this done us in light of the fact that the US is one of the most armed countries in the Western world, has the most individuals carrying guns, and yet our crime rate and murder rate is so incredibly high that it is at least 20 times or more the murder rate of any other Western country that I know of.

I am safer wandering most European cities (there is crime there but nowhere near what we have here and especially with murders) with no gun than walking here in my own country with a gun. How ironic.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. I would say that one of the main problems in America is that when someone breaks a law we slap them on the wrist and say don't do it again. We are too soft on criminals.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Comrade:
I don't know. I like them. Like I said I have a right to defend what is mine. I believe that should be a freedom. I remember a quote that said something like "Now that our guns have all been registered it will be a much safer place" Hitler said that.

Do you have a source for that quote?

 

[Daniel David]

When catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults.

 

[Comrade]

As for the quote I have to look it up I read it in a book by a well-known radio host.

Exactly Dan

 

[Rooster]

Originally posted by Marcia:
What good has this done us in light of the fact that the US is one of the most armed countries in the Western world, has the most individuals carrying guns, and yet our crime rate and murder rate is so incredibly high that it is at least 20 times or more the murder rate of any other Western country that I know of.

I am safer wandering most European cities (there is crime there but nowhere near what we have here and especially with murders) with no gun than walking here in my own country with a gun. How ironic.

Marcia, (NOTE MY ATTEMPT TO BE MORE DIPLOMATIC) accually, Mexico has a much higher crime rate, they just don't inforce there laws as well as the US, and I for one feel safer walking in downtown L.A. then I would in any forien country, the United States crime stats are based on the fact that we inforce our laws, we have larger populations than most countrys, and we have more illeagle ailiens in our country, who are escapeing the law of thier country , in many cases, bringing thier crime, and violence, and gangs with them. But I don't go out and buy guns for self defence myself, I enjoy target shooting as a sport, and historical reenacting, in some cases people arm themselves in rural areas to protect them selves from animal attacks, such as mountian lions, bears, elk, and other critters. Guns are not the basis of crime, people are, crime has been around long before guns, and can be blamed on people not liveing thier lives with Biblical pricapals. Can we agree on that?

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Comrade:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. I would say that one of the main problems in America is that when someone breaks a law we slap them on the wrist and say don't do it again. We are too soft on criminals.

I don't think that Europe is that tougher on criminals. Someone living over there on the BB might be able to address that. But Europe does not have the death penalty and very few own guns, yet their crime rate is so much lower than the US that you can't even compare the two.

Posted by Comrade:
Like I said I have a right to defend what is mine.

Do you mean you want a gun to defend your property or your family? Have you ever been threatened by someone carrying a gun? Has anyone ever broken into your home with a gun? I am seriously asking.

Ironically, I have had a gun pointed at me and I still don't want one. I also lived once where people buying illegal guns shot at the trees next to where I was living to try out the guns and I still didn't go get a gun. Of course, we had 2 dogs at the time. I would rather have a German Shepherd than a gun (as far as feeling more protected at home) but I am not allowed to own a dog where I live.

Posted by Rooster:
Mexico has a much higher crime rate, they just don't inforce there laws as well as the US, and I for one feel safer walking in downtown L.A. then I would in any forien country, the United States crime stats are based on the fact that we inforce our laws, we have larger populations than most countrys, and we have more illeagle ailiens in our country, who are escapeing the law of thier country , in many cases, bringing thier crime, and violence, and gangs with them. But I don't go out and buy guns for self defence myself, I enjoy target shooting as a sport, and historical reenacting, in some cases people arm themselves in rural areas to protect them selves from animal attacks, such as mountian lions, bears, elk, and other critters.

You're right about Mexico but I was thinking of Europe. Have you walked the streets of Europe? I've walked by myself in Lisbon. My sister and I used to go to downtown Madrid at night with no fear at all -- this was several years ago -- but there was basically no crime except maybe pickpocketing. Also, we were in London 3 yrs. ago and felt pretty safe there -- I certainly felt safer there than walking around Washington DC. For one thing, I knew there were less guns around whereas here anyone who wants one can get one.

But however safe someone feels is not the point -- the point is the statistics. The crime rates in the US are not higher because we have more population - when I said the crime and murder rate was higher, I meant per capita. I don't think crime rates have anything to do with illegal aliens -- we had a crime problem long, long before we had a the high number of illegal aliens. Please don't blame the illegal aliens.

I do see the point in owning guns in rural areas due to wild animals being around. That makes sense.

Please note I never said I was against guns or that no one should have one. It's just an attitude that I see --- as though a gun is as basic as a Bible.

 

[superdave]

The reason Jefferson supported the 2nd amendment was he felt an armed populace was one of the only ways to avoid an overly strong federal government. He also encouraged a revolution about every 200 years to keep the politicians honest. I would not use him to support the "2nd amendment only applies to militias" idea.

As far as guns in church. Michigan's CCW law makes it illegal for you to carry in churches, as well as several other types of buildings. Schools, stadiums, federal and state buildings. No guns in our church, for protection or otherwise.

But you gotta know that a couple deacons probably fetch the piece from the car before they head to the bank with a sack 'o' cash

Macomb county used to be the only one where you could get a permit, even though it was legal statewide, the guidelines were all over the place. The Legislature standardized the guidelines and now you can get a CCW if you get the state approved training, and have not been convicted of any felony, or a misdemeanor involving weapons.
It is highly regulated, just like handgun ownership in general in MI, but the crime is not from those with CCW permits, its all the crazies in Detroit, Flint, etc that are not even registered gun owners, let alone have a CCW. The right to legally bear arms has nothing to do with our crime rates.

 

[superdave]

Do you mean you want a gun to defend your property or your family? Have you ever been threatened by someone carrying a gun? Has anyone ever broken into your home with a gun? I am seriously asking.

I work in Detroit for some of my customers, and I go there at all hours of the night, in areas of the city where it can be a bit rough. I have never had my life threatened directly, but a couple of my co-workers and customers have been accosted and in one case robbed at gunpoint. It is not outside the realm of possibility.

Also when I lived in a small town in Wisconsin, a person who appeared to be high on something attempted to break in the back door of our apartment. It happens.