Should Congregations Run Churches

I am gonna think about this and get back to you.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Sorry, that statement of yours sounds condescending. A new Christian does not know everything about God's Word. Yes, but I also think it is a safe bet to say there are 90 year old mature Christians on their deathbeds that don't know everything about God's Word either. Also, you have no idea what God has chosen to reveal to a Christian, new or old, in their studies or prayer times.

Your church should have an interview process. Most do. Could be as simple as the pastor talking to the new prospects. Should be done before they stand up to be voted in. I would make sure that process is functioning properly.

Who is to say that these new Christians are not exactly where God wanted them and doing exactly what God is having them to do. How do you know that changes aren't necessary in your Church?

I don't know your circumstances because you were vague in your post.

 

Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. No man should "run" the Church. That is part of the problem with many pastors these days, IMO. They try to "run" the Church like a CEO of a secular business. They even follow the models of the secular world with a few scripture thrown in to justify it. The program has become the central focus of many churches intead of the Bible, and that is a shame.

On the other hand, you have many who have been Christians for a long time who have become complacent in Zion and fear change. What if God wishes for some things to change, and they are not open to it? Or, on the other hand, what if the change is not of God? Then, you have those who are new Christians, are idealistic, like many new pastors. They want to change the world, beginning with the Church.

Then, you have new pastors who have a heart for God, a great knowledge of the Bible, but not enough common sense to put that passion and knowledge into action. Then again, certainly Moses was not a great orater or leader either. It was not he who did the miraculous. It was God. Certainly, the Apostle Paul was not a Rick Warren. He was no Tony Evans or TD Jakes. It was the power of God working through him that made him effective in his ministry. It was his focus on the Gospel. But, certainly, many young pastors go into the ministry with unrealistic expectations of what they can do and how the Church ought to react to their ideas everytime. What I am saying here, is that perhaps everyone is in need of a change in their view of ministry and the function of the Church. What changes in thought should there be?

1. Jesus should be the head of the Church, not a pastor, not a convention, not a group of angry disgruntled members.
2. We should see ourselves as equal parts of the whole Church with different functions within the Church as Paul discussed in his letter to the Church of Corinth.
3. We should aknowledge the sovereignty of God and that should lead us to a total reliance on him to fullfill his will, not our will, through us. We should submit ourselves to that will.
4. We should acknowledge the Word of God as our blueprint for knowing the will of God. This should guide us in our doctrine, how we function within the Church, and how we handle conflict. The Bible is certainly more than adequate to guide in God's will in these matters.
5. The pastor should listen to the congregation. The pastor should faithfully preach the Word to the congregation. The Pastor should faithfully pray for the congregation. The pastor should serve God through his service to the congregation. If the pastor thinks a decision of the congregation is wrong, he should correct the congregation using scripture. If it is not a scriptural objection, then I think the pastor should yield his will. If the pastor has shown through scripture that their decision is the wrong one, and they rebel against scripture, then he should conduct Biblical discipline, and seperate from the Church if needed. Sometimes, just like the father of the prodigal, if you love someone, you must let them go and figure it out themselves. This is the way I think a servant leader shepherds his flock that God has given him.
6. The congregation should pray for the pastor, make their views known. However, if the pastor brings a scriptural objection, then they should yield to the authority of Scripture. If the pastor is bringing forth an objection that is based on carnal pride, then they should go to Biblical discipline (and no, that doesn't mean fire him). The same is true of older and newer Christians. We should not be too proud of our spiritual maturity, and the younger Christians among us shoud not be too judgemental of the cautiosness of the older Christians. We need to stop finding fault with each other and start working with each other to follow God's will as it is revealed in God's Word, since that is the purpose of the Church.
7. The bottom line is that we should all let Jesus run his church and let the Bible be the authoritative guide by which he leads us. Once we get back to the Bible, we won't have any need for the latest church growth fad to come out of California. We will be doing the will of God and God will begin blessing his Church again. I just fear that everyone of us have forgotten whose church it is these days.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I'm sorry, but until you post a specific problem or event that is taking place with details, then anything you suggest offhandly as you have done is onesided and can't be evaluated on its merits.

I don't know you or the circumstance so there is no way I can add anything of value to a discussion on that.

How can anyone here do that if all you post is generalites?

You say that these new Christians are changing things and doing things. Obviously you don't approve since you posted it. But, how am I to know that you aren't a person that is opposed to change just because it is change?

I do know this. If you are unhappy, then you have to work harder to make your point known. You have to show these "new" Christians through education of the Word where they are wrong. Of course, there again, without specifics we can't know who is wrong and who isn't.

 

Biblical church discipline is the answer to those who cause strife in the body

 

Only if she says "the pastors kids are drunks and have out of wedlock pregnancies and have been in trouble with the law and everyone is afraid of the man" and OH, by the way, should I recommend him for another pastorate?

 

Texas Sky, I believe there has to be balance.

Our church is mostly deacon run. By that I mean that if there is a problem, you either have to be prepared to bring it out openly at a business meeting(and the deacons don't like that), or you take it to a deacon and chance that the rest of the deacons will never hear about it.

That is good in some ways. People who have a minor problem and sneak off to one of the deacons to tattle, usually don't get/go any further. If there is a real problem though and the deacon you approach doesn't see it that way, then you have make a lot of noise in order to be heard.

The biggest problem with a deacon run church is that they have the power to do a bunch of stuff without consulting the church body. In our case this led to a loss of a pastor who was popular with the people but didn't administrate church business the way the deacons thought he ought to. Messy, messy stuff and now we are senior pastorless for the second time in 4 years.

I've also been a part of churches where the pastor had the control. This is okay if you have a good pastor, other times it is a monarchy! The best run church I've been to in terms of church business was the one that had it all balanced out. Of course I was a kid then and have no idea how they did it.

 

What do business meetings, votes, Robert's rules of order, and congregationalism have in common? None of them are in the Bible.

Allow the leader God has called and chosen to lead.

 

I have seen it and is one of the main reasons I don't post much. I tend to read more than talk.

I may have misread some into your original post. I think that change is not bad if it is God-led. I do not like to hear people complain about change just because "that's the way we always did it". I have seen the opposite of what you have described in old churches on the verge of collapse due to stagnation about not wanting or willing to accept ideas from new believers.

 

There is little detail about church government in scripture. We do have the account in Acts 6 with the choosing of the 7. "The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stepthen...." This seems to indicate some kind of process where the entire congregation was involved, probably to vote on the 7, though we don't know the exact method.

In Acts 11; the whole church takes up a donation and sends it to Jerusalem with Paul and Barnabus to the "elders" of the church at Jerusalem. The whole church sends them.

In Acts 15: The elders consider what to do with the Gentiles, since they were being converted by Paul. James (the chief elder?) gives his opinion. This opinion "seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church"

After much discussion among the leaders (elders and apostles (although apostles are in a category by themselves and no longer applicable)) the decision was brought before the whole church. Why? For discussion and approval.

Paul gives general guidelines for "good order" and "modesty" during worship services, and practical guidelines concerning qualifications of pastors(elders) and deacons and women on the widow's list.

And we have Jesus's instructions for church discipline in Matt.18. Church discipline was a vital part of the life of the church in keeping the focus on Christ and bringing sins (such as gossip) to the members attention so they could repent and be forgiven. Unless you realize you sin (and sin in the congregation is against the whole body) then you cannot be forgiven and restored. The hardest thing for fallen man to do is admit they have sinned before God. Notice the final instruction is to bring the unrepentant member before the whole church, and if they still will not repent, then the whole church adminsters the final discipline.

The closest biblical model is for elder led (not "rule") churches, following the protocol above. Deacons should be servants of the church. One problem, IMO, that we have is that deacons take on the function of elders when they probably did not have that kind of authority in the first churches.

By the way, SBC churches origionally made a distinction between the office of pastor, elder and deacon. They merged the pastor/elder role in the 1925 statement.

 

Answer to the OP:

It is far too easy to join most Baptist churches... and my honest observation is that SBC churches are much worse than IFB's.

Further, very, very few churches ever apply church discipline to anyone except for a leader.

 

BTW, I think having two different services for those who prefer one style or the other is a terrible idea... it builds in division of the congregation.