Simple Outline Comparing C. v A.

[Dr. Bob]

A member asked me in a pm to summarize how I saw the differences of Calvinism and Arminianism (there is still a lot of confusion, as per this entire Forum!! )

Now I am NOT neutral, so my views will slide into these descriptions a little. These are not deep theology, just simple-to-understand distinctions:

Role of Man in Salvation:
C - NOTHING. Dead, unable to even respond, believe, call, free will is fallen and depraved and cannot choose right unless God does something (like giving repentance and faith)
A - SOMETHING. God gives man a free will to accept or reject grace and believe

Role of Father in Salvation:
C - ELECTS by grace alone, not based on anything foreseen, but by sovereign choice selects certain hell-bound depraved sinners to receive salvation
A - ELECTS by foreknowing who would turn to Christ on their own and just puts them "in Christ" because of their faith

Role of the Son in Salvation:
C - FULLY REDEEMS those selected ones, with Jesus blood while "able" to save everyone is designed and effective only for the elect
A - OFFERS REDEMPTION to everyone to make their own choice, not securing salvation for any but making salvation possible for those who believe

Role of the Spirit in Salvation:
C - EFFECTIVELY CALLS those elect and atoned for individuals, regenerating them, giving them life and the faith and repentance to believe
A - CALLS ALL men to repent and believe, leaving the choice to man

Role of the Triune Godhead in Salvation:
C - SAVES ETERNALLY since it is all God's doing, sealing and keeping saved and secure all that the Father has chosen
A - SAVES TEMPORALLY since it is Man's choice, allowing man to choose NOT to believe and thereby lose salvation

Okay. Open for yea or nay, rewording and reworking. USE YOUR FREE WILL

 

[Eric B]

I never realized the middle three pointc corresponded to Father, Son and Spirit, with the two outer points representing man, and God[as a whole]. I wonder if that was done intentionally.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:

Role of Man in Salvation:
C - NOTHING. Dead, unable to even respond, believe, call, free will is fallen and depraved and cannot choose right unless God does something (like giving repentance and faith)

Ok, Bob, let's take one of these at a time.

You use the words, "unable to even respond, believe"

Can you show me anywhere in scripture where anyone is said to be unable to respond or believe because they were born that way?

 

[Sularis]

Bill this is less a debate thread - rather then a definitions style thread

- Simply put those definitions are acceptable - but neither are what I suscribe to entirely

The problem is that people think that there is no third camp in this doctrinal duel

You are either one or the other

I am neither

 

[ScottEmerson]

Let's place another hat on the definitions and see what we come up with: (Note that I will be defining Arminanism as Arminius did - important, esp. for the last point)

Role of Man in Damnation:
C - NOTHING. Dead, unable to even respond, believe, call, free will is fallen and depraved and cannot choose right unless God does something (like giving repentance and faith), which for some, He does not do.
A - SOMETHING. God gives man a free will to accept or reject grace and believe

Role of Father in Salvation:
C - ELECTS by grace alone, not based on anything foreseen, but by sovereign choice selects to choose or pass over certain hell-bound depraved sinners to receive salvation. Only those not passed over for salvation are saved.
A - ELECTS by foreknowing who would turn to Christ on their own, placing them "in Christ" because of their faith

Role of the Son in Salvation:
C - FULLY IGNORES those non-selected ones, with Jesus blood while "able" to save everyone is designed and effective only for the elect
A - OFFERS REDEMPTION to everyone to make their own choice, making salvation possible for those who believe

Role of the Spirit in Salvation:
C - EFFECTIVELY CALLS those elect and atoned for individuals, regenerating them, giving them life and the faith and repentance to believe
A - CALLS ALL men to repent and believe, leaving the choice to man

Role of the Triune Godhead in Salvation:
C - SAVES ETERNALLY since it is all God's doing, sealing and keeping saved and secure all that the Father has chosen
A - SAVES ETERNALLY, sealing and keeping saved and secure all who believe in Him.

That's better, wouldn't you say?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Scott - I like the 5th point. Eternal salvation for those who believe (which, of course, are only the elect, but it doesn't sound so harsh)

But on the Atonement - doesn't the reformed position believe that there are benefits for all (man, creation, spirit world)

So in a generic way Christ DIED for "All" while REDEMPTION is particularly for the elect. Makes a fine-line distinction.

Might that work?

 

[Yelsew]

Role of Man in Salvation:
C - NOTHING. Dead, unable to even respond, believe, call, free will is fallen and depraved and cannot choose right unless God does something (like giving repentance and faith)
A - SOMETHING. God gives man a free will to accept or reject grace and believe.

Essentially agree!

Role of Father in Salvation:
C - ELECTS by grace alone, not based on anything foreseen, but by sovereign choice selects certain hell-bound depraved sinners to receive salvation.
A - ELECTS by foreknowing who would turn to Christ on their own and just puts them "in Christ" because of their faith

A-Established His Grace towards all mankind, Provides His Only Begotten Son to atone for the sins of the world, so that, "Whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life" (John 3:16), Knows who has and who has not accepted His Son and casts those who have not into the lake of Fire (Rev 20:15).

Role of the Son in Salvation:
C - FULLY REDEEMS those selected ones, with Jesus blood while "able" to save everyone is designed and effective only for the elect
A - OFFERS REDEMPTION to everyone to make their own choice, not securing salvation for any but making salvation possible for those who believe

A-Is himself the atonement for the sins of the world, thus negating both sins and works as the measure for man's redemption. Justifies all, so that the only measure of the judgement of man is the man's faith or lack thereof. Works are judged, but not unto salvation! Sin is not held against man. Leaving faith in Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the measure of man unto salvation.

Role of the Spirit in Salvation:
C - EFFECTIVELY CALLS those elect and atoned for individuals, regenerating them, giving them life and the faith and repentance to believe
A - CALLS ALL men to repent and believe, leaving the choice to man

A-Holy Spirit lights the Gospel message heard in the one hearing thus establishing truth in the hearer. Once one believes, the Holy Spirit empowers the believer to act on the new belief and to understand the things of the spirit. So long as one believes in God, Believes his Word, and repents from sinning, the Holy Spirit indwells and strengthens one's faith. However one can continue to sin and thus grieve the Holy Spirit rendering the Holy Spirit ineffective in his life, thus leaving what ever faith he may have subject to loss.

Role of the Triune Godhead in Salvation:
C - SAVES ETERNALLY since it is all God's doing, sealing and keeping saved and secure all that the Father has chosen
A - SAVES TEMPORALLY since it is Man's choice, allowing man to choose NOT to believe and thereby lose salvation

Without the triune Godhead there is no salvation! But yes, man can lose faith, even the "elect", and thus lose their salvation. However those who have faith when the spirit departs the flesh, elect or not, are saved by their faith, under God's grace. The key: Faith is the determining factor, and because everyman has the ability to come to faith, anyman can have faith in God and thus have eternal life which is salvation!

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
But on the Atonement - doesn't the reformed position believe that there are benefits for all (man, creation, spirit world)
[/QB]

There is a thread on that - common grace. The problem is linking the atonement with common grace - it hasn't been Scripturally shown.